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Old 03-25-2016, 11:36 AM   #1
kdtipa
 
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Default I still want better rules for shotguns

In 2013, I started this thread...
Shotguns and RoF... is there a better way?

It's a long thread which might shed some light on Shotgun rules for you if you want, but in case it's too long, I'll just summarize it with a couple important points.
  • I don't like the mechanic for handling close range shotgun shots
  • I was told many times that it doesn't matter which shot the pellets come from when figuring out how many pellets hit with the rcl number. I tried to argue that if you want to hit separate targets, it would be important, but that brought up a whole bunch of other rules and penalties, and didn't really answer my question.

I still think it's important to know which shot is providing the pellets, and I finally thought of a scenario where it would matter. Let's use the Auto Shotgun on page 279 of the basic set...
RoF: 3x9 (or just 3 for slugs right?)
Shots: 6+1
Rcl: 1 (or 4 for slugs right?)
Let's say my player decides to get creative and puts a buck-shot round in first, and follows it by 2 slugs. The character he's playing fires three shots at a single target. If it doesn't matter which of the shots hit when figuring out how many shots hit based on margin of success and rcl number, the player could just say the two slugs hit, plus however many pellets the margin of success allows. But that makes no sense to me. I might need to work to explain why a character would want a buck shot round followed by two slugs, but it's possible, and depending on setting, there might be plenty of good reasons (first one is silver to negate a werewolf's regen, and then the next two are slugs to just do a ton of damage).

My next problem with the way shotguns are handled is this: If we don't allow the user to pick the order to apply their margin of success, we end up with needing a margin of success of at least 8 (so ALL the buckshot hits) before we can consider a possible hit with the next slug. There's no way to have some but not all of the buck shot hit and still have the following slugs hit. And an effective -8 before the slugs might hit seems way too punitive.

I guess I'm saying again that I don't like the shotgun rules.

To keep from just being negative, I'll suggest something along the lines I'm thinking of in a new post on this thread. In the meantime, I'm hoping to hear thoughts on this, even in support of RAW if you have logical arguments.
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:44 AM   #2
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: I still want better rules for shotguns

In a high-RoF attack with mixed projectiles, I would roll randomly for which type of projectile hit. Two slugs and nine buckshot would become "roll 1d for each hit, on a 6 it was a slug, otherwise buckshot." This isn't precise, but nothing in a playable action scene is! At close range it would be "roll 1d for each hit, on a 3, 4, 5, or 6 the hit is a slug, otherwise its a cluster of buckshot." Again, keeping the action flowing and allowing a plausible range of outcomes is the most important thing! People are way more likely to leave a gaming group because it is boring than because the GM assigned something a 33% probability and they think it should have been 28%.
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:51 AM   #3
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: I still want better rules for shotguns

Tactical Shooting has rules for this, on page 31.

They're kind of harsh, honestly. Under them, shooting N rounds of type A and M rounds of type B often means less total hits that if you'd only shot N rounds of type A.
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:54 AM   #4
Varyon
 
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Default Re: I still want better rules for shotguns

One option would be to roll without any bonus for RoF* and determine your MoS (or MoF) there. MoF 1 or higher means you hit with no slugs, MoS 0-(Rcl-1) is 1 slug, MoS Rcl-(2*Rcl-1) is 2 slugs, etc. Subtract Rcl from MoS per additional slug that hits, then add in the bonus from RoF. Whatever your MoS is now, that's how many pellets hit.

So, let's say you have Guns 14, Aimed for 3 rounds (+5), and are firing at a werewolf 20 yards away (-6), for effective skill 13. You roll a 10. MoS 3 means 1 slug hits but the other misses. Add the bonus for 11 shots (+2) to MoS 3 - in addition to the slug, you also hit with 5 pellets, for a total of 6 hits.

*Actually, you use the RoF bonus that's appropriate to the particular round you're favoring.
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:57 AM   #5
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Default Re: I still want better rules for shotguns

Alternate Shotgun Rules

Close Range Buckshot?
Within 2 yards, treat buckshot as half damage slugs of the same gauge.

How many pellets hit with Buckshot?
Outside of 2 yards, roll to see how many of the pellets hit. To figure out what to roll, take the multiplier in the RoF stat of the shotgun that's using the buckshot. The common number is x9. Fit as many d6s into that number as possible (in this case 1), and add the rest as a modifier. So in this case we're talking about 1d+3. If the multiplier is less than 6, subtract enough so a roll of 6 gives the max number. So a multiplier of 4 would be 1d-2. Apply the range penalty to that number. So even if you roll well with skill, you might miss a target completely that's far away.

I might list the new RoF as something like: "3 (1d+3)" instead of "3x9"

Rcl with buckshot?
Rcl is usually listed as 1 for buckshot. Just use the normal slug rcl number for the same gauge. This way, if you fire multiple shots in the same round, there is an easy way to define which shots hit and contribute to damage.

And damage?
other than buckshot within 2 yards, damage is handled as normal. Each pellet counts separately versus DR.

Last edited by kdtipa; 03-25-2016 at 12:00 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:58 AM   #6
Anthony
 
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Default Re: I still want better rules for shotguns

In the end, the RoF rules are nothing more than a playable approximation, they don't actually do a particularly good job of modeling reality.
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:02 PM   #7
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: I still want better rules for shotguns

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
Alternate Shotgun Rules

Close Range Buckshot?
Within 2 yards, treat buckshot as half damage slugs of the same gauge.

How many pellets hit with Buckshot?
Outside of 2 yards, roll to see how many of the pellets hit. To figure out what to roll, take the multiplier in the RoF stat of the shotgun that's using the buckshot. The common number is x9. Fit as many d6s into that number as possible (in this case 1), and add the rest as a modifier. So in this case we're talking about 1d+3. If the multiplier is less than 6, subtract enough so a roll of 6 gives the max number. So a multiplier of 4 would be 1d-2. Apply the range penalty to that number. So even if you roll well with skill, you might miss a target completely that's far away.

I might list the new RoF as something like: "3 (1d+3)" instead of "3x9"

Rcl with buckshot?
Rcl is usually listed as 1 for buckshot. Just use the normal slug rcl number for the same gauge. This way, if you fire multiple shots in the same round, there is an easy way to define which shots hit and contribute to damage.

And damage?
other than buckshot within 2 yards, damage is handled as normal. Each pellet counts separately versus DR.
You've neglected to say anything about what bonus to hit you get which is a sort of vital point.
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: I still want better rules for shotguns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
You've neglected to say anything about what bonus to hit you get which is a sort of vital point.
You're right. But that was a first stab at alternate rules. I'm happy to hear suggestions for the bonus. Maybe 1/3 of the multiplier? So a 9 would mean a +3 with buckshot?
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:12 PM   #9
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Default Re: I still want better rules for shotguns

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
You're right. But that was a first stab at alternate rules. I'm happy to hear suggestions for the bonus. Maybe 1/3 of the multiplier? So a 9 would mean a +3 with buckshot?
So +30 or more with birdshot? Um.

I'm not that much of a fan of the rapid fire rules, but one should try not to make them dramatically worse...
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:37 PM   #10
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Default Re: I still want better rules for shotguns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
So +30 or more with birdshot? Um.

I'm not that much of a fan of the rapid fire rules, but one should try not to make them dramatically worse...
Hah... okay. suggest something. So far, the RAW still seems pretty bad to me, and I'm liking the beginning of the alternate rules. I'd love help on some of the rules I'm less familiar with. For example, I don't even know where the bonus to hit for "shot" type rounds is defined in the basic set. I wouldn't have known to address it at all if you hadn't said something.
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