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Old 04-14-2023, 10:01 PM   #1
jackcelso
 
Join Date: May 2015
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Default we want more denizens!!!

Hello!!!

Gentlemen I have to be honest Gurps Dungeon Fantasy Thieves, it was a great release!!! The best in a long time!!

I look forward to more books in the series. Especially the book about Knights
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Old 04-15-2023, 01:51 AM   #2
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Default Re: we want more denizens!!!

Gotta second that whole post, though for me it would be Druids first, Knights second. All the others have some nifty extra options already while Druids are severely underpowered and Knights are just a bit on the boring side. DF 11: Power-Ups helps, but again the Knight power-ups are powerful, but boring and feel mechanically un-GURPSy. The Reincarnation power-up for Druids is pretty unique and interesting, but it's something you'd rather not use if you can avoid it. And having a resurrection cleric in your party makes it an even more dubious investment.

Also when I first heard denizens I thought of races first and I would certainly buy a DF-specific book for dwarves, elves etc in a heart-beat. Yes, it impinges a bit on the very promising Fantasy Folk line and while that can be mined for interesting bits for DF, its focus is really somewhere else. Maybe these books could feature multiple races like The Usual Suspects (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings (those especially are suspect in DF with the Halfling Mob), Goblin-Kin (Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, Orcs), Extra-Large (Ogres, Minotaurs, Stranglers), Fey and Half-Spirits.
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Old 04-15-2023, 04:11 AM   #3
johndallman
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Default Re: we want more denizens!!!

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Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker View Post
. . . Knights are just a bit on the boring side. DF 11: Power-Ups helps, but again the Knight power-ups are powerful, but boring and feel mechanically un-GURPSy.
The only DF character I've played is a Knight, and it isn't boring if you're the only specialist hand-to-hand combatant. The need to manage positions and tactics keeps me rather busy. I suspect the denizens supplement for Knights should have a lot on tactics, and on optimising character development for different tactical styles.
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Old 04-15-2023, 04:35 AM   #4
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: we want more denizens!!!

When I was running DF actively I must have wrote 30,000 or 40,000 words worth of new material for holy warriors, bards, druids, and knights. Just absolute gobs of random stuff for my players to expand their options. If I were to write another Denizens book it would probably be for either bards or holy warriors - probably the latter. Holy warriors are so *neat* in the idiom of dungeon fantasy, but so mechanically boring in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. There needs to be more that they can do. The cleric should not effectively be a better holy warrior with the right traits than the holy warrior itself and right now that's sort of the case.

(I am also thrilled that folks have liked GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Thieves as much as they seem too. It's been like 90% positive reviews and that makes me extremely happy. Thank you all so much. ^_^)
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Old 04-15-2023, 05:08 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The only DF character I've played is a Knight, and it isn't boring if you're the only specialist hand-to-hand combatant. The need to manage positions and tactics keeps me rather busy. I suspect the denizens supplement for Knights should have a lot on tactics, and on optimising character development for different tactical styles.
Don't get me wrong. I agree that the role is anything but boring, especially if you don't have a swashbuckler and a barbarian stealing your spotlight, but the template and power-ups are rather plain. I had a quick look at the Career Guide just now and found some more power-ups in Pyramid 3/61 and those are MUCH more interesting and atmospheric. Still, a separate volume would be much appreciated and your suggestions are spot on. Some more variants for starting templates would also be nice and the knight is one of the characters for whom load-outs matter a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
When I was running DF actively I must have wrote 30,000 or 40,000 words worth of new material for holy warriors, bards, druids, and knights. Just absolute gobs of random stuff for my players to expand their options. If I were to write another Denizens book it would probably be for either bards or holy warriors [/snip]
Definitely go with Holy Warriors then! Bards do have a lot of neat stuff already (horribly overpriced, but that can be solved by converting to multiplicative modifiers) and while Holy Warriors do get some atmospheric stuff and extra abilities in DF 7: Clerics, you are right that mechanically they are kinda boring. Maybe tying in something special like a slowly regenerating energy reserve to power some of the abilities might help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
(I am also thrilled that folks have liked GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Thieves as much as they seem too. It's been like 90% positive reviews and that makes me extremely happy. Thank you all so much. ^_^)
Where are those dastardly 10% non-positive reviewers? I can't see them - they must be hiding in the shadows! Seems like they gained something after all!
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Old 04-15-2023, 05:12 AM   #6
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker View Post
Definitely go with Holy Warriors then! Bards do have a lot of neat stuff already (horribly overpriced, but that can be solved by converting to multiplicative modifiers) and while Holy Warriors do get some atmospheric stuff and extra abilities in DF 7: Clerics, you are right that mechanically they are kinda boring. Maybe tying in something special like a slowly regenerating energy reserve to power some of the abilities might help?
Heh.



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Where are those dastardly 10% non-positive reviewers? I can't see them - they must be hiding in the shadows! Seems like they gained something after all!
Meh. It happens. Can't make everyone happy. Mostly it was complaints about aping abilities from DnD for GURPS - which I can't understand as DnD is the ur-example for thieves in RPG settings. But you know. They do them.
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Old 04-15-2023, 05:27 PM   #7
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The 2 in most need for a Denizens are the Druid and the Martial Artist. The Druid needs it because most of the stereotypical Druidic spells are much more powerful outdoors than indoors, Plant spells especially. Weather spells too. Animal spells can work indoors, although many of the DF creatures fall more into other categories. The Martial Artist needs it because its strength doesn't mesh well versus a wider variety of monsters than the other fighter classes. How do you karate chop something with high DR or judo throw something semi-tangible?

Last edited by edk926; 04-15-2023 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 04-15-2023, 06:08 PM   #8
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How do you karate chop something with high DR or judo throw something semi-tangible?

Funnily enough, Denizens: Thieves provides a partial answer to the last question. The concoction "Spirit Tar" on p.36 allows whatever it is applied on to affect insubstantial beings "as if they were substantial" for an hour. It's meant to be applied to weapons, but I see nothing that would prevent a martial artist from coating his hands or gloves and opening a can of kung-fu on any spirits he wishes to grapple. Swarms and gaseous opponents remain a problem, of course.
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Old 04-16-2023, 06:13 AM   #9
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Default Re: we want more denizens!!!

I completely agree about Druids needing a denizens treatment.

Iíve really liked the slow build toward a hidden pirate adventuring squad in the denizens line, and a sea Druid sounds wicked cool. Alternate Forms is fiddly, and I think priced a little steeply. I would be really happy to see a different approach to that.

Druids are the hardest template to play, in my experience, followed by thieves. I think the Denizens Thieves book addresses them really well, and Iíd hope for similar relief for Druids.

Of course, Iíll buy any denizens books that come out. Martial artists and holy warriors are both great candidates. I feel like half the players in my group with holy warriors have thrived, half have suffered from being a 2nd class cleric and a 2nd class knight. A pirate holy warrior archetype sounds like a stretch to me, but I am here for it.
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Old 04-16-2023, 04:37 PM   #10
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Default Re: we want more denizens!!!

Looking forward to DF Denizens: Bards, meself. Especially with an extended selection of musical instruments, including but not limited to the hurdy-gurdy, orphica, and alto and tenor serpent (for those looking for a low-tech alternative to saxophones for playing the blues).
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