Talent/Spell of the Week: Brawling

[hcobb]

Yes, Brawling and Carousing are new in Legacy, but see Adventures-2 for a character based on Carousing. (The half-human.)

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/legacy_first.html#Talents

[Axly Suregrip]

How often do you choose Brawling for your characters or NPCs?

> often, when it makes sense.

Do you use Brawling as-is, or have you found tweaks that make it better for your style of game?

> I removed the "unfriendly fight" bonus damage. Gaining +2 damage in HTH from a 1 point IQ7 skill is too much. Even limited it is a good buy and often taken by PCs & assigned to NPCs.

What are your thoughts about "friendly" brawls?

> I have removed the extra damage, thus don't have friendly brawls. If you wish for a friendly brawl use Taking Prisoners rules, ITL 126.

When Brawling is used in your games, is it ever for just the +1 damage?

> Already answered.

What are your thoughts on the Brawling/UC stacking debate?

> They should not stack. If you have both, apply the one that works best in any given situation.

Have you found other talents or spells that work especially well when combined with Brawling?

> if you want a bar fights fighter, then Toughness will go well with Brawling. Specially if taking bet and no one can see your "armor".

Has Brawling ever been decisive in a melee in on of your games? If so, share details!

> no


> Altogether I like the Brawling talent (with the exception of the extra damage for unfriendly fights). I think a HTH talent that works when you are in armor was needed. And for someone that wants a martial artist there is still the UC talents.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by phiwum

...but even that should be tweaked so that a friendly brawl doesn't leave one on death's doorstep with weeks of healing required.

But this distinction would be a change primarily to unarmed combat, allowing one to do something like fatigue damage...

Originally Posted by phiwum

Sure, but TFT damage is hardly a bruise. Each point of damage takes two days to heal.

Hence my suggestion (NOT original with me, I think) that most hits in a friendly brawl should be fatigue damage. Maybe brawling should allow that to be all hits are fatigue damage...

That would definitely be a step in the right direction, but even as you point out it doesn't quite solve everything. Let all the blows count as fatigue, but you still reach that point where death is only 1 point away.

It's always been a bit of a sticking point with TFT that only 1 hit separates unconsciousness (incapacitation) from death. A ST 10 figure with 10 hits of fatigue, however it got them, is merely unconscious for 15 minutes if left alone, and yet only 1 hit of any damage on top of that -- practically a pin-prick -- finishes them off! Legacy rules slightly address this by making it easier to revive the dead than it had been under the Classic rules, but that really doesn't solve the problem under most circumstances (ie, friendly brawling) and feels pretty unrealistic. Wouldn't it be better not having to revive someone who shouldn't have been dead in the first place?

Best would be if it was just as easy to knock out and incapacitate figures, while at the same time it became harder to kill them. That doesn't actually interfere with game balance, because you can still kill a helpless figure whenever you want to.

To do that though means tweaking the "death rules" a bit, and that's a whole other topic.

[John.A.Hanna]

1. How often do you choose Brawling for your characters or NPCs?
Almost never
2. Do you use Brawling as-is, or have you found tweaks that make it better for your style of game?
N/A as it is almost never used
3. What are your thoughts about "friendly" brawls?
Sounds like an interesting scene ... once
4. When Brawling is used in your games, is it ever for just the +1 damage?
It is primarily picked as one of the few 1 point talents when a PC has 1 point left.
5. What are your thoughts on the Brawling/UC stacking debate?
UC takes up so many talent points that there is almost no room for spending a point on Brawling ... so not applicable
6. Have you found other talents or spells that work especially well when combined with Brawling? Nope
7. Has Brawling ever been decisive in a melee in on of your games? If so, share details! Nope

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by John.A.Hanna

1. How often do you choose Brawling for your characters or NPCs?
Almost never
2. Do you use Brawling as-is, or have you found tweaks that make it better for your style of game?
N/A as it is almost never used
3. What are your thoughts about "friendly" brawls?
Sounds like an interesting scene ... once
4. When Brawling is used in your games, is it ever for just the +1 damage?
It is primarily picked as one of the few 1 point talents when a PC has 1 point left.
5. What are your thoughts on the Brawling/UC stacking debate?
UC takes up so many talent points that there is almost no room for spending a point on Brawling ... so not applicable
6. Have you found other talents or spells that work especially well when combined with Brawling? Nope
7. Has Brawling ever been decisive in a melee in on of your games? If so, share details! Nope

Your dismissal of brawling surprises me. It's pretty common for animals to force a player into HTH. He has a 1/3 chance to be unable to draw a dagger when that happens. Brawling is pretty darned useful for that reason. (Per RAW, "dirty" fighting does the same damage as a dagger in HTH.)

A +2 damage in HTH is really significant. Why are you so uninterested in it?

(As GM I do try to force HTH somewhat often. If the players have a Fencer, say, it's pretty easy to take away his advantages by going to HTH. Of course, you have to either have him backed into a corner, have an MA advantage or have a player foolish enough to let his Fencer into HTH voluntarily.)

[hcobb]

Fencer ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11 Fine Rapier (1d+2), fine main-gauche (1d+1)

The Fencer loses the talent bonus damage from the main-gauche in HTH, but then gets the same result from HTH adjustments. (And hence does a point more than brawling could provide.)

The wolf has a 2/3rds chance of forcing HTH and then a 74% chance of hitting with a neck bite with 1/3rd KO and automatic -4 DX otherwise.

I don't see a bright future for this Wildlife Wrestling Federation.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Fencer ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11 Fine Rapier (1d+2), fine main-gauche (1d+1)

The Fencer loses the talent bonus damage from the main-gauche in HTH, but then gets the same result from HTH adjustments. (And hence does a point more than brawling could provide.)

The wolf has a 2/3rds chance of forcing HTH and then a 74% chance of hitting with a neck bite with 1/3rd KO and automatic -4 DX otherwise.

I don't see a bright future for this Wildlife Wrestling Federation.

It's not clear to me how you're figuring things. I'll work through your reasoning in this post, since filling in the details takes me a bit of effort.

For damage, the fine main gauche does 1d+1 in HTH, so I get that point.

The wolf may be able to force HTH from the rear with his MA 12 movement, but that's iffy at best, so let's go with the 2/3 chance to force HTH (rather than 4/5 for a rear attack[1]). If he attacks from the side, then he can enter HTH in the movement phase and hence attack in the action phase, before the fencer. If he is unable to attack from the side, then he forces HTH in the action phase and the fencer gets the first attack.

I suppose that the neck bite you're speaking of is an aimed shot for the head, for a net -2DX and hence a roll of 12 on 3 dice, which is about 75% chance to hit. I don't usually have dumb animals make aimed shots, but I think it makes perfect sense that a wolf would go for a throat as you suggest. That does make a KO a 1/3 chance as you said.

So, yes, a 32 point fencer who is forced into HTH by a wolf is in a poor state. Assuming that he's still conscious, his counter attack is at DX 12 (the -4 penalty for a head hit countering the +4 bonus for HTH), doing one to six points damage after the wolf's natural armor. On the next turn, unless the wolf took five or more hits, another aimed attack is a pretty good idea. The fencer is outmatched.

This will be true for most 32 point characters, to be fair. A wizard in the same situation will have problems casting a spell with a -4 DX penalty. Of course, everything really hinges on the turns prior to the wolf attempting HTH. It's pretty rare that a wolf gets to attack on the first turn he's been seen and it's pretty rare that it will be a one-on-one fight. The advantages for PCs is their ability to choose their arrangement and the broad set of talents and spells that a party has.

But a pack of determined wolves that outnumber the characters is a difficult foe. I don't usually play things out quite that way.

[1] It's a matter of some controversy whether forcing HTH from the side counts as "from behind" and hence a counterattack roll (6) is ignored. I'll assume that "from behind" means from the rear hex.

[hcobb]

Snapjack, Dwarf, age 20
ST 14, DX 9 (8), IQ 9, MA 10
Talents include: Brawling, Carousing, Pole Weapons, Toughness II
Languages: Common, Dwarvish
Weapon: halberd (2d)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d)
Armor: Toughness II and cloth armor stop 3 hits

Snapjack depends on set vs charge or HTH bonuses to actually ever hit anything.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Snapjack, Dwarf, age 20
ST 14, DX 9 (8), IQ 9, MA 10
Talents include: Brawling, Carousing, Pole Weapons, Toughness II
Languages: Common, Dwarvish
Weapon: halberd (2d)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d)
Armor: Toughness II and cloth armor stop 3 hits

Snapjack depends on set vs charge or HTH bonuses to actually ever hit anything.

Okay, so Snapjack has a good shot at beating the wolf to death, but dies in a million other situations. Not entirely sure what point you're making here.

Snapjack is an interesting character and will be pretty decent with a bit of XP spent on increasing DX. He may find it difficult to get there, but if he has reliable colleagues, he can spend a lot of time defending and taking opportunistic shots.

He certainly doesn't change my opinion that most 32 point characters would struggle if a wolf has gotten close enough to force HTH from the side.

[Shostak]

A lone wolf might "brawl" by becoming decidedly unfriendly, making aimed attacks at the head where a mere 3 points of damage would be enough to negate the victim's HTH DX bonus. Wolves working together would probably have one making a pin and the other slaughtering the helpless foe.