GURPS News updated

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I didn't see Sean saying "No crunch from now on and forever!" Just that less is probably more in the eyes of the PTB. He's got a rough job, y'all. Everything he does for GURPS and more...he deserves our support. We need to support him.

I think the issue is largely that people see "No fussy ability builds with tons of modifiers" or "No vehicle-design rules" as the same as "No crunch." If you're an avowed fan of those things, you're right . . . for you. But for most of the hobby, even GURPS Lite is a tad too crunchy. What makes my job rough is trying to drive right down the middle without too badly disappointing either group.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I never meant to suggest that—though maybe we're operating on different definitions of "crunch". By my understanding of the word, Dungeon Fantasy is full of crunch—but that doesn't mean it isn't "ready to use". But maybe what Kromm means is stuff that isn't at all ready to use, like Powers and Thaumatology.

As he posted, simplified crunch seems to be where it's at at the moment.

Originally Posted by Kromm

I think the issue is largely that people see "No fussy ability builds with tons of modifiers" or "No vehicle-design rules" as the same as "No crunch." If you're an avowed fan of those things, you're right . . . for you. But for most of the hobby, even GURPS Lite is a tad too crunchy. What makes my job rough is trying to drive right down the middle without too badly disappointing either group.

I know, man. It's hard. We can only do our best and hope that's good enough. :-(

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The First, Second, and early Third Edition GURPS brand – lots of world material, rules ad-libbed in sidebars, relative few construction systems, nothing close to later Third or Fourth Edition's power or vehicle builds – was easier to sell. That was the period when GURPS was most popular in terms of units sold and return on investment. Later material was certainly more popular in terms of fan discussion, but that doesn't translate into benefits for SJ Games' bottom line.

Also, those who think I'm against crunch or gamers who like it take note: I was hired in 1995, or during the later Third Edition. I was one of the designers of Fourth Edition. The move to power and vehicle builds, and intense crunch, was entirely on my watch. I encouraged it – you could build a good case that it's my fault. I can't visualize the universe where anyone could claim that I'm against it, given what I've done for 27 years.

I'm discussing what I need to do to keep the game relevant and thus retain my job, not what I want to do as a gamer or content creator.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

One thing I think is firmly gone are the days of "GURPS is a sourcebook". Wikipedia has enough useful information (as do other sites) that it's "good enough" for gaming for most folks.

Only if you know enough to know what to look up.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm saying, "If the crunch is truly necessary, have it but keep it simple. If it isn't truly necessary, leave it to GMs to invent." Nobody really, truly needs 200-300 pages on vehicle design . . . sorry, but no, they don't. A good stats gamut and some editorial oversight on what does and doesn't make sense, for vehicles or for anything, is good enough. As soon as it crosses the line into "voluminous mini-game all on its own," it's off the rails of what's likely to sell to the majority of customers of the main game.

This is hard for me to fully grasp.
I personally love GURPS for several things but high on the list is the toolbox approach.
But also the definition of crunch seems kind of vague to me, though this post gives me a bit more insight.
I think of templates and stat blocks as crunch.
Rules are crunchy.
Adventures are not crunchy but very limited audience as they often work for a specific setting or sub genre and a certain point level.
Settings could be fluff or crunchy. The originality is not crunchy but no idea will have universal appeal. The details, maps, NPCs and history are they crunchy? That seems like a big time saver to those who use the setting though.
Supers is probably the most crunchy genre out there, lots of unique builds so that seems to be off the table. Its a small market and has solid competition anyway though.
Space-Sci Fi seems like gear would be crunchy, including vehicles so I guess that is kind of off the table and I think there is no real competition out there so though its a smaller market its one worth addressing. I have hope for Douglas Coles announced project on this.

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

Only if you know enough to know what to look up.

This is so true. So many people really do not know how to find things on the internet and it can still take quite a bit of time researching things and weeding through the results to find what you need or are even looking for. More so if you do not really know what your looking for.
I do think the value of the historical world books has gone down, and definitely feel they do not need revisions for Fourth Edition but still find them useful and think they were a big draw.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

Only if you know enough to know what to look up.

Not really. Wiki-walking is easy to do for just about anyone.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I think the issue is largely that people see "No fussy ability builds with tons of modifiers" or "No vehicle-design rules" as the same as "No crunch." If you're an avowed fan of those things, you're right . . . for you.

Ah. When I saw you say "editorial and production efforts directed toward sifting through a page of crunch" I thought you meant like, character templates. "Fussy ability builds", as you say, are different. Much as I like things like Divine Favor and Psionic Powers (and have used them quite successfully with new players, at least as part of pregen characters), they strike me as very optional.

But for most of the hobby, even GURPS Lite is a tad too crunchy. What makes my job rough is trying to drive right down the middle without too badly disappointing either group.

Man, I hate to keep harping on this but this "how crunchy is it?" is really the wrong frame. 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons had more character options than GURPS Lite in the Player's Handbook alone, but it also had a structure for selecting those character options. That structure is why it's still 100% true that 3rd edition D&D was more accessible than GURPS Lite—based on your class, race, and level it told you how many feats to take, it set a maximum number of points in a single skill, etc. That's the kind of thing GURPS needs more of.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Not really. Wiki-walking is easy to do for just about anyone.

Research is a skill: some people aren't as good at it as others and can use a helping hand.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

Research is a skill: some people aren't as good at it as others and can use a helping hand.

The internet is infinite and people keep collating data to be easily found. In my opinion that's the real killer of "GURPS is awesome for sourcebooks!". Data is put together in nice neat packages that are then linked to related subjects.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Man, I hate to keep harping on this but this "how crunchy is it?" is really the wrong frame. 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons had more character options than GURPS Lite in the Player's Handbook alone, but it also had a structure for selecting those character options. That structure is why it's still 100% true that 3rd edition D&D was more accessible than GURPS Lite—based on your class, race, and level it told you how many feats to take, it set a maximum number of points in a single skill, etc. That's the kind of thing GURPS needs more of.

3eD&D was big back then, but a lot of people like to go lighter these days. 5eD&D trims down a lot of the choices, and even makes feats optional. Even if you give people structure, if you give them too many choices with too many rules per choice they may get paralysis.