TL 0 SSTO Rocketplane (or, when TLs are not TLs)

[PTTG]

OK, but seriously.

Let's talk about what a TL is. In my usage, they are primarily a tool to tell players (or others) what skills and equipment they're going to have available, and what the world looks like, even if they aren't familiar with the history or story.

They are secondarily a tool for playing with extremely unusual situations where a PC moves between worlds, or even more rarely a PC starts with a background from a different world.

And as a tertiary use, they can be cut, spindled, and mutilated to help worldbuild a setting with divergent technology while still maintaining a rough idea of capability. For example, a Flintstones-like TL0+7, or a society with no appreciable medical technology but advanced spaceflight.

Two general notes come to mind: First, that TLs are progressively less useful as you progress down that list. Second, that TLs are exclusively a generalist concept. Specific inventions and techniques are entirely likely to appear before or after the start date of their TL; what's important is which broad class of capability the tech fits into.

This is not to discourage discussion about what techs fit into what TL. Rather, this is a general answer to people who are unsure how TLs work (at least, how I've received it; the authors presumably have a more nuanced view). Also, I like the idea of somehow letting a TL 0 rocketplane get built. Sometimes you roll a lot of threes while working on an invention....

A few useful discussions:
Advantage of the Week: High TL
Disadvantage of the Week: Low TL

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by PTTG

Also, I like the idea of somehow letting a TL 0 rocketplane get built. Sometimes you roll a lot of threes while working on an invention...

Well if the gravity on the planet you're building the plane on is really low, you could build a rocket plane powered by balloons (from intestines or stomachs, perhaps) and built out of wood. Of course when you escape the atmosphere, the pilot's probably dead and the balloons probably all burst, so...

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by PTTG

They are secondarily a tool for playing with extremely unusual situations where a PC moves between worlds, or even more rarely a PC starts with a background from a different world.

This is valid if "world" is used metaphorically. There are a number of cases when you want someone from the same world at a different tech level, but usually they're from a very different culture and lifestyle. The places I see it the most are "Primitive Races" in Fantasy settings, of a "native" character at TL5 or TL6.


As an aside, a TL0 Rocketplane makes me think of The Integral Trees, which is a mostly 0 gravity environment. Though that would probably be TL1.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by PTTG

TLs are progressively less useful as you progress down that list.

Could you expand on this a bit? It's not clear to me what this means.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Could you expand on this a bit? It's not clear to me what this means.

TL's are very useful for the first point, providing a list of gear for players to use and to prepare for in the setting.


They are moderately useful for the second point, dealing with characters and worlds who have differing tech levels but interact with each other none-the-less.


They are not as useful for constructing divergent tech levels, though they still can be used in that fashion.

[Stormcrow]

My favorite illustration of TL^, and of not taking TLs too seriously, is an old Far Side cartoon:

https://img.ifunny.co/images/0042b03...5336f90e_1.jpg

If you're going to play in a setting where cavemen build time machines — or rocket planes — don't worry too much about whether the TLs are "accurate." As long as you have what you need to run the game, it doesn't matter.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by PTTG

[TLs] ... are primarily a tool to tell players (or others) what skills and equipment they're going to have available, and what the world looks like, even if they aren't familiar with the history or story.

And this is good, because GURPS is a RPG and "what exactly a PC can buy to beat bad guys with" and similar concerns are primary in RPGs as they are actually played.

There are all sorts of negative knock on effects to this that we have hashed out in excruciating detail on these boards. There are also plenty of bits where the TLs are probably too biased towards European history as perceived by RPG authors in the 80s and 90s. But overall it mostly works for facilitating good multi-genre RPG options.

I would buy (and have bought) books about GURPS TLs, the history of tech, and so forth, but that is for personal interest, not making my RPGs more fun.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by martinl

And this is good, because GURPS is a RPG and "what exactly a PC can buy to beat bad guys with" and similar concerns are primary in RPGs as they are actually played.

There are all sorts of negative knock on effects to this that we have hashed out in excruciating detail on these boards. There are also plenty of bits where the TLs are probably too biased towards European history as perceived by RPG authors in the 80s and 90s. But overall it mostly works for facilitating good multi-genre RPG options.

I would buy (and have bought) books about GURPS TLs, the history of tech, and so forth, but that is for personal interest, not making my RPGs more fun.

Fun is key but having TL as a "what exactly a PC can buy to beat bad guys with" mechanic kind of fell apart with Effective TL (introduced in Fantasy).

Being at TL3^ but thanks to the magic being able to get the equivalent of a Star Trek tricorder (TL (7+3)^) or early gun ("wand" 3d6 fireball) effectively kicks the "what exactly a PC can buy to beat bad guys with" idea in the head.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by martinl

And this is good, because GURPS is a RPG and "what exactly a PC can buy to beat bad guys with" and similar concerns are primary in RPGs as they are actually played.

However, they are not primary in worldbuilding. And on one hand, I've long said that for me, the moment the PCs come on stage for the first time is the moment when the best part of a campaign is over—the part when the beautiful worldbuilding comes to an end; and on the other, the worldbuilding is essential for me to be able to run a campaign, as my answer to "what happens when the PCs do X?" is ultimately dictated by my mental model of the campaign world.

[Shuckster]

In a wildly cartoony way you could stand on a rock capping a volcano as it erupts and get launched into space (Jojo's bizzare adventure part 2 style)

The real reason to do a TL 0 campaign is to get players to craft their own stuff, the low tech companions have a lot of details on how they can do this and there's even a pyramid magazine article all about making stone age characters. Resource gathering, refinement and all manor of professional skills become vital. The crafting rules also give players a surprising amount of freedom with respect to what kind of gear they want to make and a pretty comprehensive way to stat and price it all.

At lower TLs the party is stuck being very self reliant and survival poses more challenges than just sabretooth tigers and Neanderthals, staying warm, fed, healthy and dry can present their own challenges.
Players might have to make naturalist rolls and scrounge just for basics and every part of a slain enemy is crafting material, bone, hide etc.

At higher TLs there's probably a town or village with people who have specialized jobs the players would never build their characters around, like farmers, fishermen, tailors etc. If they need something they just need money and they can get it. That's simply not the case for TL0. Without anything beyond esoteric medicine even minor injuries can present big problems.

That being said I think most people use TL0 for time traveling/dimension hopping games or for really really unusual backgrounds on characters.