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Old 10-07-2012, 11:15 AM   #1
David Johnston2
 
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Default [Biotech] Genetic Behaviourism

The subject of innate irreligiousness having been brought up again, brought to mind an issue that I've thought about, the question of just what is and isn't a genetic trait.

Basic personality traits can be bred for and therefore can be engineered. Ask any dog breeder. You could probably engineer people to be highly prone to Fanaticism and Obsession for example, but you can't control precisely what will obsess them by genetic means. That's where "nurture", environmental influences in general play their role. The exact same genetic makeup could be a enthusiastic commie atheist or evangelist republican just depending on where and when it was raised into an adult. Specific emergent behaviours and thought patterns generally can't be engineered in or out as such. Instead you have to work on a more fundamental level.

You could for example decide that you want to create a new subspecies of humanity that will not start wars. You can't slap genetic Self-Defense Pacifism on all of them because Self-Defense Pacifism isn't a genetic trait. It's an emergent behaviour, the product of environment plus not too high genetic aggression/competitiveness, and not too much fearfulness. Oh and a pretty tightly restricted inclination to cooperate with others as well.

And when you operate on that kind of fundamental level, there are going to be all kinds of knock-on consequences. Make people genetically Unfazeable to reduce the chance that they'll start a war out of fear, and and you might make them also economically uncompetitive, content to just get by day to day, and without the impetus of fear they may also have Combat Paralysis as they have to stop and think about how to deal with any confusing situation. The idea that you can just genetically excise any capability or "flaw" from the human mind and leave the rest untouched, is another example of the lego genetics fallacy. As Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri pointed out, you can't just put the genes for an elephants trunk into a human sequence and get a human with a nose tentacle. Neither can you tamper with the fundamental emotional drives underlying the species capacity for things like warfare, religion, crime, political affiliation and sexual orientation and leave the rest totally unchanged.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Biotech] Genetic Behaviourism

OK???

I mean, do you like want some feedback or are you just getting this off your chest or what?
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:08 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Biotech] Genetic Behaviourism

Well you could short cut the neurobiological functions for predatory aggressions. There is a Book by a neuroscientist gping by the name of Jaak Pansep, titled "Affektive Neuroscience" about the chemical prozesses behind human and animal emotions.

Experiments sugest that rats or cats actually enjoy a stimulation of brain region responsible for agressiv rage or better predatory aggression. Culling this would be a biochemical angle to work.

Last edited by SonofJohn; 10-11-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Biotech] Genetic Behaviourism

Anger can be disturbingly intoxicating. At least it was for me as a child. And predatory instincts can pop up in the strangest of circumstances.

My best friend has what my girlfriend and I call the "V" on her head. It screams potential victim. I sometimes have an odd urge to hamstring her with my non-existent claws like a lion on the Serengeti.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: [Biotech] Genetic Behaviourism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serenity 2005
They stopped going to work, they stopped breeding, talking, eating. There's 30 million people here, and they all just let themselves die.
You have to be careful not to take away their drive / will to live...

I think we grow on conflicts and challenges make us better. We like football (basketball for those from the US) because of the emotions. It would be more fair if there were no wrong decisions by the referee but it would lack the emotions and as such far less interesting.
What you describe are "mindless work drones" and as such only desirable if you are an oppressive totalitarian government. It would therefore require a ruling "elite". However this goal could probably also be achieved if you raise children in camps and indoctrinate them...
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:04 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Biotech] Genetic Behaviourism

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The subject of innate irreligiousness having been brought up again, brought to mind an issue that I've thought about, the question of just what is and isn't a genetic trait.
The answer to that is poorly known, and in many cases the answer is mixed, in that there's a genetic proclivity towards something but it won't actually happen without additional environmental factors.
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:40 AM   #7
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Default Re: [Biotech] Genetic Behaviourism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The answer to that is poorly known, and in many cases the answer is mixed, in that there's a genetic proclivity towards something but it won't actually happen without additional environmental factors.
I believe we have genetic dispositions that enhance the tendency for a certain outcome.
e.g.:
some people easier gain weight (extreme examples are people with Polynesian roots, navigating an ocean on a tree trunk is simply easier if you have some fatty tissue). But you actually get fat because your balance between output (exercise) and input (eating) is off.

I like to believe that most of these genetic dispositions can be overcome with will / training / conditioning. Our society currently enables us to become fat by saying "it's genetics", giving us an excuse outside of our control.

So while there are defective genes that lead to disabilities (mental and physical) or present themselves as diseases none of those are beneficial to the society.
So far, I have yet to see a publication that convinces me even remotely of a gene for social traits (gene for violent behavior, for altruism etc).

-------------------------------------------------------------------

For gaming purposes you could consider the following:
- No soldiers = no war
- The famous Milgram experiment showed that most people do cruel / evil things if an authority figure tells them to.
=> Provocatively I could put it like this:
"Our desire to fit into society is the root of all conflict"

In short, the perfect society is not made up of sheep but gentle wolves. Kinda like Star Trek (Not an expert on that area so don't flame me ;)). Everybody is well educated, has what he needs and strives to be a better part of society for himself and society. You learn to deal with your emotional outbursts and you forgive.
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:00 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Biotech] Genetic Behaviourism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Wanderer View Post
- The famous Milgram experiment showed that most people do cruel / evil things if an authority figure tells them to.
I've read a re-analysis sort of article on the Experiment (unofficial, of course), and it listed some aspects that were overlooked. The one I remember was that the experiment presented a selection bias, by only observing the people who considered participation in experiments (Science!) as a worthy cause. Just a curious tangent.
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:12 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Biotech] Genetic Behaviourism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Wanderer View Post
...
- The famous Milgram experiment showed that most people do cruel / evil things if an authority figure tells them to...
I think those "experiments" and the participants are fraudulent .

Given just how illegal much of what we are told happened was {there is a limit on how much a waiver can let you get away with} yet not one lawsuit or criminal charge {or even a single cop sniffing into the affair} , either it is all a lie or we live in bizaro world .
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Biotech] Genetic Behaviourism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frost View Post
I think those "experiments" and the participants are fraudulent .

Given just how illegal much of what we are told happened was {there is a limit on how much a waiver can let you get away with} yet not one lawsuit or criminal charge {or even a single cop sniffing into the affair} , either it is all a lie or we live in bizaro world .
Many many crimes have been perpetrated in the name of scientific research. There is a reason why all the rules about ethical oversight have been developed - because without them, occasionally people did some really terrible things.

The US government sponsoring a study that started with infecting black men with Syphilis and denying them medical treatment in an extended observation lasting IIRC 20 years was a thing that they got away with scott free. And it was more horrific than the Milgram experiment ever was.

We don't live in a bizaro world, we live in a world with people in it, and people periodically do some pretty terrible things to each other in the name of various justifications.
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