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Old 10-24-2020, 03:36 PM   #11
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Swinging from the sidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
I second the motion: we need a cartoon brawl counter for HTH

To Phiwum,
I agree with you that the original system seems a little off. I agree with how it starts (DX+4 vs intended target). If you miss your target I don't see why you would be having options to strike foes you never initially intended. At this point it should just be random. At this point switch to the missile weapon into HTH rules.

But since this does not come up often and I prefer to stay with the rules unless I really hate it, I would not change this in my house rules.
The missile weapon rules for HTH are not a great fit, since the only roll is to-hit, not to-miss.

I'm thinking of adjusting as follows: First, roll to hit your target, with the usual +4 DX. If you miss, randomly select another target in the hex and roll to hit or to miss, but without the +4 DX modifier.

In this case, the odds of hitting an ally in a one-on-one fight becomes 5% for DX 10 and about 2% for DX 11 or better.

So, in sum, I see the following options:
  • RAW
  • Ran -- Fully randomize the order and roll to hit or to miss with +4 DX
  • Adj -- As RAW, but omit the +4 DX
  • ModAdj -- Use +4 DX for first to hit, omit on subsequent rolls

When swinging into a one-on-one fight, the approximate odds of hitting an ally are as follows (first number is for DX10, second DX11):
  • RAW 1% / 0.25%
  • Ran 5.5% / 2.6%
  • Adj 25% / 14.4%
  • ModAdj 5% / 1.9%
In terms of realism, I'm not sure which odds are best. If we were really concerned about realism, I'm sure that the weapon type would matter; a dagger or punch is easier to aim into a fracas than a sword or axe, I'd think, but I'm not at all interested in that level of granularity.

I think it's obvious that a 1% chance to hit the wrong target is too low for realism's sake. I also think a 5% chance is too low, but I'm not positive about that.

For game play's sake, I rather like the most dramatic choice (Adj). The folks on the sideline have to worry about whether they will strike an ally. A sufficiently high DX fighter can still reliably hit the opponent without putting his buddy in danger. I've only listed DX 10 and DX 11 above, but at DX 12, the odds of hitting an ally fall to 6.8%.

But I must say I'm surprised that so many here think that RAW is about right. RAW makes jumping into HTH when facing multiple foes positively suicidal, contrary to the suggestion in the text. When you do that, you go from a situation where multiple foes are attacking at adjDX to a situation where the same foes are attacking at adjDX + 4 with no fear of collateral damage to the ally. At best, if the lone figure has a high DX or happens to be adjacent to the side or rear hex of an enemy, he might have bought himself one turn when others are out of position to attack him.

So, anyway, I'm still thinking, but I'm strongly leaning against RAW obviously. I think considerations of collateral damage are both realistic and good for game play.
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Old 10-24-2020, 04:26 PM   #12
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Swinging from the sidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The rules are pretty clear. If, say, two baddies are in HTH with one good guy, a yellowbelly hero on the sidelines can swing into the hex. Because everyone is prone, he's +4 DX to hit the baddie he's aiming at. If is DX is 11, this is a roughly 5% chance to miss. If it's ten, then roughly 10% chance to miss.

If he misses, he rolls the same odds against the second baddie.

If he misses the second baddie as well, he has the same odds to accidently hit his ally.

With DX 10, then, the odds of accidentally hitting your ally in this situation is roughly one in a thousand. (If there's only one baddie and one good guy, the odds increase to one in a hundred.)

Seems to me this is a bit nuts. I'd think there should be some significant risk of hurting one's ally when attacking into a brawl. A simple solution would be to lower the odds for each die roll, with the obvious choice being to take away the DX bonus for attacking a prone target.

Otherwise, the comment that "When you're surrounded by foes, sometimes the best thing you can do is jump on one of them!" is inapt. If you do that, the other foes just start mauling you from the safety of the sidelines.

Have these odds struck anyone else as unrealistic? A one-in-a-hundred chance for a person of average DX to accidentally strike his buddy in the brawl really is inconsequential.
(Edit: Text in grey was a mistake.)
Wait. Your math is wrong.

The roll to hit the ally is a roll to-hit at the same DX +4. So the chance to hit the wrong person is not the chance to miss raised to the power of the number of figures in the hex. It's the chance to miss raised to the power of the number of ENEMY figures, and then multiplied by inverse, i.e. the chance to HIT, the ally.

So if there's one foe in HTH with your ally and your to-hit is 90%, the chance to hit your friend is 9%.

If there are two foes in HTH with your ally, then the chance to hit your ally is 0.9%.


The system could stand to be tweaked for the multi-figure case. An easy way that makes sense to me would be:

If the first foe is missed, randomly determine ONE other figure in the hex, and roll to hit that figure. On a miss, it's a miss. Crit failures only take effect on the first to-hit roll.

(Edit: I posted that before reading your final suggestion. Which, it turns out, is almost the same as my suggestion! I actually like your version better, leaving out the +4. I'd be tempted to reduce or leave out the +4 to hit the intended target, too... or to make it an option whether to take the +4/+0 as you suggest, or to try +0 but get to roll to MISS an unintended target +4. So you can choose between a great chance to hack someone, probably who you want, or doing it carefully, reducing the chance to hit the wrong person.)

Last edited by Skarg; 10-26-2020 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 10-24-2020, 07:02 PM   #13
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Swinging from the sidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Wait. Your math is wrong.

The roll to hit the ally is a roll to-hit at the same DX +4. So the chance to hit the wrong person is not the chance to miss raised to the power of the number of figures in the hex. It's the chance to miss raised to the power of the number of ENEMY figures, and then multiplied by inverse, i.e. the chance to HIT, the ally.

So if there's one foe in HTH with your ally and your to-hit is 90%, the chance to hit your friend is 9%.
Okay, either I'm misreading you here or one of us is misreading the rules.

Let's stick with two figures in the hex, the baddie and the ally. I roll to hit the baddie, with a 0.9 chance of hitting. If I miss, then I roll to miss the ally, with a 0.9 chance of missing. Thus, I hit the ally only if I fail both rolls and hence have 0.1 * 0.1 = 0.01 probability of hitting the ally.

If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying I need to miss the first roll and "succeed" on the second roll, so have 0.1 * 0.9 = 0.09 probability of hitting the ally.

But that's not how I read roll to miss. ITL 117 directs us to ITL 116 which directs us to ITL 115 which describes a successful adjDX roll indicates missing an ally, not hitting one.

Am I missing not understanding something?
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Old 10-24-2020, 07:10 PM   #14
Terquem
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Idaho Falls
Default Re: Swinging from the sidelines

I think in melee attacks directed into HtH

Roll to hit your target - if miss
Roll to hit the next available target until you hit someone or miss everyone

In Shooting (Ranged) attack into HtH
Roll to hit your target - if miss
Roll to MISS the next target

That is the way I am remembering it, but I should just look it up, after all its on this computer, duh
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Old 10-24-2020, 07:54 PM   #15
TippetsTX
 
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Location: North Texas
Default Re: Swinging from the sidelines

I would prefer to adapt my house-rules that make use of the existing concealment/coverage rules. My approach requires the GM to adjudicate how much of the target figure is visible and target-able, but there is never a 'roll to miss'... attacks into melee (or HTH) are resolved by a single roll.

For example, let's say an archer normally would have an adjDX of 12 to hit an orc opponent two megahexes away, but that figure is engaged in HTH with one of the archer's compatriots. Based on this, the GM decides that at least half of the target figure will be effectively blocked by her mage buddy who is rolling around soon to be killed by the stronger orc foe. This applies an additional -4 DX to the roll. So if the archer manages to roll 8 or less, she hits the orc as intended, but if she rolls a 9, 10, 11 or 12 guess who gets an arrow in the back... the wizard, that's who. Oops.
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Old 10-24-2020, 07:58 PM   #16
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Swinging from the sidelines

Relevant passages:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL 117
If a standing figure attacks an enemy who is down in HTH
combat with other figures, and misses, he then rolls for each
other enemy in the HTH combat, and then for each friend,
until he hits someone. Example: Two goblins have engaged
Ragnar in HTH combat. He can only attack them (he must
pick one or the other), and they can both only attack him.
Bjorn comes up with his sword and hacks at one of the goblins.
His DX for that attack will be at +4 (because the goblin is on
the ground, it counts as a rear attack), plus Bjorn’s other DX
adjustments, if any. If Bjorn misses the goblin, he rolls again
– same DX adjustments – to see if he hits the other goblin. If
he misses again, he rolls – same adjustments – to see if he hits
Ragnar. See Hitting Your Friends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL 116
Hitting Your Friends
An attacker must “roll to miss” when his missile or thrown
weapon passes through the hex of a figure he does not want
to hit (see Thrown Weapons). In the same way, he must “roll
to miss” a friendly figure when he strikes at an enemy in the
friendly figure’s hex and misses.
This can happen when a
standing figure tries to hit an enemy on the ground in hand-
to-hand combat (see below) and misses. He may then roll,
one by one, to see if he hits other enemies in that hex. If
he misses them all, he must roll, one by one, to miss each
friendly figure in that hex.
He stops rolling when he hits one
figure, or misses them all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL 114
When a weapon is thrown, the attacker must first “roll
to miss” each figure between him and his target. The attacker
makes his DX roll as usual, but if he rolls his adjDX or below,
he misses, and the weapon flies past; otherwise, it hits.
Thus, if there are two figures engaged in HTH, then per the rules, you roll adjDX+4 to hit your target and if you miss, you roll adjDX+4 to miss your ally.

Hence, a DX 10 character (with the +4 bonus) has to fail both rolls to hit the ally, and since he fails only about 10% of the time, that's a 1% chance to hit the ally per RAW.
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Old 10-24-2020, 08:06 PM   #17
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Swinging from the sidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
I would prefer to adapt my house-rules that make use of the existing concealment/coverage rules. My approach requires the GM to adjudicate how much of the target figure is visible and target-able, but there is never a 'roll to miss'... attacks into melee (or HTH) are resolved by a single roll.

For example, let's say an archer normally would have an adjDX of 12 to hit an orc opponent two megahexes away, but that figure is engaged in HTH with one of the archer's compatriots. Based on this, the GM decides that at least half of the target figure will be effectively blocked by her mage buddy who is rolling around soon to be killed by the stronger orc foe. This applies an additional -4 DX to the roll. So if the archer manages to roll 8 or less, she hits the orc as intended, but if she rolls a 9, 10, 11 or 12 guess who gets an arrow in the back... the wizard, that's who. Oops.
A bit complicated, but reasonable. You would've hit the orc but for the wizard standing in the way, so you hit the wizard.

Of course, realistically, it's not quite like that. Perhaps you missed precisely because you aimed to the outside to avoid the wizard. Thus, you would've hit but for the wizard, yet you didn't hit the wizard.

In any case, adapting this to striking into HTH, we'd either have to make up the percentage blocked as a constant or make it different based on whether the ally or the baddie is "on top". But this doesn't take into account that a miss of the guy on top still might hit the guy on bottom, even if he's not providing any cover at all for the guy on top.

That said, there's always been something flaky about rolling to miss in this game, I'm afraid. For missiles, I might think about your method. Still has some issues regarding striking non-targets behind the target, I think, but I'd rather not digress at present.
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Old 10-24-2020, 08:43 PM   #18
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Swinging from the sidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Okay, either I'm misreading you here or one of us is misreading the rules.
...
Am I missing not understanding something?
No, you are correct. I was mis-remembering. Sorry!

I'll never forgetting thinking I could get away with striking into HTH with a long-time comrade, and killing her. My adjDX was over 15. Only one foe in the hex, though.

In any case, I still like your suggested revision.
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Old 10-24-2020, 09:16 PM   #19
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Swinging from the sidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
No, you are correct. I was mis-remembering. Sorry!

I'll never forgetting thinking I could get away with striking into HTH with a long-time comrade, and killing her. My adjDX was over 15. Only one foe in the hex, though.
If you were playing RAW, you were pretty darned unlucky. Totally not your fault.

Quote:
In any case, I still like your suggested revision.
Well, you still offered an alternative that would work, with a minor amendment.

Here are the three alterations that have to do with the +4 Bonus. In every case, I randomize the order of rolls after the first to hit roll.

Adj: No +4 DX bonus when striking into a hex with HTH[*]
ModAdj: A +4 DX bonus to hit the (first) enemy, no bonus for further rolls, whether to hit or to miss.
SkargAdj: Either a +4 DX bonus to hit or a +4 DX bonus to miss.

In a one-on-one fight, I reckon that ModAdj and SkargAdj end up giving the same odds to hit an ally, so probably SkargAdj is more complicated than necessary. Adding to the to hit is always preferable. (If there are more than two combatants, perhaps it would matter, but that's a less common situation.)

I'm leaning towards Adj, which is the most dramatic change. I'll probably try ModAdj for a while and see if it's sufficient. It might have the odd effect of making HTH harder for the players, since a GM will take a chance to hit an ally (not his character, after all!) and a player not.

None of this changes anything if you're facing dragonets or nuisance critters, because in those cases there's no real facing concerns. Perhaps an over-literal reading of RAW gives you a +4 DX bonus to miss your spider covered ally if his back is to you, but that seems just silly. If swinging at a dragonet attacking an adjacent ally, both of whom are facing away, I'd give a +4 to hit the dragonet and no adjustment to miss the ally.

These considerations actually give some small support for ModAdj, since the results are the same: A plus to hit, no plus to miss. The situations are different enough that I'm not sure I'd weight that support much. A "real" rear hex gets a bonus for inability to see the swing coming. A prone figure gets a bonus for inability to react quickly.

In sum, the proposed house rule is either of the following:

Quote:
  • Mod Adj If a standing figure attacks a figure who is down in HTH combat with other figures, roll the attack with the normal +4 DX for prone figures. If he misses, randomly select another figure in the HTH combat. If it is an enemy, roll to hit that enemy, and if a friend, roll to miss. In either case, do not apply the +4 DX bonus for prone figures. Continue until either one figure has been hit or all figures have been missed.
  • Adj As above, but omit the italicized.
[*] Throughout, I'm assuming there's a character you want to miss. If you just want to hit someone in the hex, then I might just add +4 for every to hit roll.

Last edited by phiwum; 10-24-2020 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 10-24-2020, 11:30 PM   #20
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Swinging from the sidelines

TBH, I have never agreed with the +4 DX to hit a 'prone' figure... not as a universal rule, anyway.

Yes, it is easier for a standing figure to hit someone who has been knocked prone directly in front of them, and yes, it is easier to hit someone that you are locked in HTH with because you are already in physical contact with each other, but I would not grant the bonus to an archer firing from more than 10' away because in that situation, the prone figure is actually a smaller target. I would also not grant it to a standing figure attacking someone engaged in HTH with another character because they are effectively making a 'called shot' to try and hit one specific target who is rolling around on the ground, partially obscured by his opponent who you presumably don't want to hit.
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