[MA] Southern Kung Fu, the Common Folk and Tong Hatchetmen

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I am very interested in aggressive parry for weapons

While I was in college I studied what the guy claimed was 'English Broadsword', which may or may not have had anything to do with the English or Broadswords

The main tactic in this consisted of launching hearty full driving range swings from side to side, and the basic parry taught was the same as the basic attack, you just attempt to attack through the area the other guys weapon happened to be coming from

The main limiting factor on writing a Technique like that is that I still haven't completely worked out a good way to word (and accomodate edge cases) my house rules on Striking At Weapons.

It occurs to me that for people who don't mind that Striking At Weapons doesn't actually do very much, I could whip up a version in an hour or so. Depending on the breaks.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I like it. On the other hand, I'm not sure that cutting the grappling elements out makes sense. Surely there were times where it was easier to conceal a single weapon than two, there were no weapons at all available and/or the fighter was attacking from ambush and thus didn't need a parrying weapon. Generally, street-ready styles include some grappling elements, frequently Wrestling.

And I'd have Knives as a primary skill too.

Sure, I wouldn't object to either of those changes. The grappling thing was mostly a last second whim when I played out the implications of it being a two-sword style in my head.

You could also add grappling without putting Wrestling back in simply by including Armed Grapple and Arm Lock (Shortsword), even Special Set-Up (Arm Lock from Shortsword Parry) to make it really stand out, but I'm pretty sure all those would require a free-hand also.

Originally Posted by Icelander

The main limiting factor on writing a Technique like that is that I still haven't completely worked out a good way to word (and accomodate edge cases) my house rules on Striking At Weapons.

It occurs to me that for people who don't mind that Striking At Weapons doesn't actually do very much, I could whip up a version in an hour or so. Depending on the breaks.

The problem I'd have is that damaging the weapon is rarely the goal of such a strategy.

To me there are two types of Armed Aggressive Parry that might each need their own techniques.

1. Parrying with the edge of the blade against your (armed) opponents wrist or hand, instead of his weapon. This is a move common in Wudang Sword. In the past I've treated this as a Stop Hit, but that's unsatisfying.

2. Parrying the weapon forcefully in order to push it out of line, like a Beat.

For this second type, perhaps something like this:

Forceful Parry Hard
Defaults to any Parry at -2. Cannot be improved above Parry.

A forceful parry is designed to push your opponents weapon out of line and create an opening. After a successful Forceful Parry, Roll a contest of your ST against your the best of your opponents ST or ST based Weapon skill. The heavier weapon receives a +1 to this contest, +2 if the difference in weight is enough to force a weapon breakage check.
For every 2 points by which you win this contest, your opponent receives a -1 to all Parries until his next attack. This is cumulative with the effects of Counterattacks, Spinning Attacks, and Deceptive Attacks.
If you lose the contest, your opponent takes no penalty. If you lose by 5 or more, you failed to exert enough force to actually parry the blow. Your opponent rolls damage as though the original attack was successful, but divides it in half.


Hmmm... just a rough draft of course, may be too powerful for very strong fighters. Needs fine-tuning and playtesting. A feature of this method is that it works as written in Unarmed combat as well, as an alternative to a regular Aggressive Attack.

[Icelander]

As promised, if a few hours late:

Armed Aggressive Parry

Hard

Default: prerequisite skill Parry-1.
Prerequisites: Any Melee Weapon skill; cannot exceed prerequisite skill Parry+4.

This technique is the armed counterpoint to Aggressive Parry (MA p. 65). Instead of deflecting the force of an attack, your defence consists of a hard strike into the path of the foe's weapon or the limb holding his weapon. To use it, roll against Armed Aggressive Parry to defend against a melee attack, including any modifiers below. Improving this technique above your prerequisite skill Parry can reduce these technique-specific penalties, but cannot result in a higher effective Parry than if you had not used this technique.
___Armed Aggressive Parry is subject to all the same restrictions as Aggressive Attack. That is, it is incompatible with Cross Parry, you cannot retreat and if you fail your Parry, your opponent may choose to hit his original target, your parrying weapon, your parrying arm or your parrying hand.
___ You can choose one of three forms of Armed Aggressive Parry. You may elect to knock your foe's weapon out of line, you may attempt to damage your foe's weapon or you may attempt a strike on the hand or arm of his weapon hand.
___ For the first two options, simply roll vs. Aggressive Parry to defend, at all usual modifiers. If you succeed, move to a roll against the underlying skill, as explained below.
___ If you chose to knock his weapon out of line, you immediately get to make a Beat attempt against your foe at -6 to skill. If you wish to try to damage his weapon, roll against the underlying skill to hit his weapon, modified by -3 to -5 for weapon size (see p. B400). See below for the damage you inflict and p. B483-B485 for the effects. Note that if your foe is unarmed, you may use this option to damage his striking limb, at the usual penalty for the hit location involved. Because armed parries against unarmed foes are Aggressive by default and without having to abide by the restrictions of Armed Aggressive Parry, electing to use this technique against an unarmed foe grants a damage bonus of +2 or +1/per die to the usual damage you would cause on an armed parry.
___ If you want to to damage the hand or arm of an armed foe, however, he must be within the Reach of your weapon at the time of his attack. You must also accept a further penalty to your Parry. This is -1 if you have a longer weapon than your foe, -2 if they are the same length and -3 if your foe has a longer weapon. If you succeed at your Parry, you may make a roll against the underlying skill to hit, at -2 for his arm or -4 for his hand. You also suffer a -2 if you have a longer weapon, -4 for having equal length weapons and -6 for having a shorter weapon than your foe.
___ Damage done by this technique, whether striking your foe or his weapon, is normally based on thrust damage for your weapon, modified by either -3 or -1 and -1/per die, whichever is worse. Weapons without a thrust mode may for this purpose replace their swing damage with thrust, retaining modifiers. It is possible to do swing damage with this technique, but this is at -1 to both Parry and the to hit roll, and the damage is -4 or -2/per die, whichever is worse.* The maneuver chosen by your attacker can have an effect on your damage. Snapping attacks without a lot of power behind them are harder to meet forcefully, while haymakers or whole body smashes allow you to attack into his strike with greater effect. Against a Defensive Attack, the damage you do with this technique has a further -2 or -1/per die penalty, whichever is worse. When used to defend against a Committed Attack (Strong), however, you get a +1 (or +1/per two dice) to damage and against All-Out Attack (Strong) you do +2 (or +1/per die) to damage.
___ A character with ST 14 character using a Mace would thus have the option of doing either (sw+3 > thr+3 = 1d+3; 1d+3 - 3 = 1d) 1d cr or (sw+3 = 2d+3; 2d+3 -4 = 2d-1) 2d-1 cr. If he elected the latter, he would be at a further -1 to Parry and also a -1 to the roll against his underlying weapon skill to successfully do damage. Against a Defensive Attack, he would do 1d-2 cr or 2d-3 cr, while he would do 1d+1 cr or 2d cr if parrying a Committed Attack (Strong). Defending against an All-Out Attack (Strong), he would do 1d+2 cr or 2d+1 cr. Add +2 to all of these if his opponent were attacking him unarmed.

As a house-rule, I'll also allow normal Aggressive Parry to function as a Beat at -6 to skill instead of doing damage, at the defender's option. I will also have the maneuver choice of the attacker have the same effects.

*In my campaign, unmodified Parries against unarmed attacks do half damage, not full. To explain more fully, the user may elect to use any attack mode legal for his weapon. If that is a normal thr mode, he simply halves the damage. If he wants to use a mode that normally uses sw damage, he can do so, but he replaces the sw damage with thr damage before halving.
So you can see that this is an improvement over normal Parry damage, at least for high ST people or ones with fine or magical weapons. I suppose I'll drop the 'halving' rule to better fit GURPS and instead have damage be thr -4 or -2/per die, whichever is worse. I've resisted until now because unlike the 'halving', that hardly blunts the edge of damaging parries by Weapon Masters with Very Fine magical swords. But I suppose they earned their awesomeness, with points if nothing else. Edit: I'll have the damage be -4 or -2/per die for thrusting, but -6 or -3/per die for swinging.
If your campaign has armed parries against unarmed do full damage, no one will ever want to use this technique against an unarmed foe, but you probably shouldn't change the damage for Striking Weapons or the limbs of armed foes.

[Icelander]

Does anyone know the characteristic parts of the body targeted with butterfly sword techniques, either in Wing Chun or any other CMA style?

Is it more common to go for arms, for a literal disarming hit, or fight-ending strikes aimed at high-value targets like the neck, femoral artery or face?

I've only seen modern videos of Wing Chun butterfly swords and I don't know how representative that would be of the way they'd be used if the goal was murder and mayhem rather than perfection of form and/or building wrist strength. The impression I get is that attacks at peripheral areas of the body are de-emphasised in favour of torso, neck, upper arm (brachial) and upper leg (femoral) attacks, but that just be my misapprehension.

[Icelander]

Knife-fighting forms in CMA often make extensive use of the reversed, ice-pick or underhand grip. As a consequence, here are some ways to specialise in that grip:

Underhand Grip Defence

Hard

Default: prerequisite skill Parry-2.
Prerequisites: Axe/Mace, Knife or Shortsword; cannot exceed prerequisite skill Parry.

While advantageous for thrusting attacks, Reversed Grip has serious weaknesses when it comes to defence and swung attacks (see MA p. 111-112). Training in this technique can overcome the defensive weaknesses. If you have improved this technique, instead of defending at Parry -2 as it usual for Reversed Grip, you may roll against your level of Underhand Grip Defence.

Underhand Slash

Average

Default: prerequisite skill -2.
Prerequisites: Axe/Mace, Knife, Shortsword or Tonfa; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

Swung weapon attacks from Reversed Grip usually suffer a -2 (or -1/per die) to damage. If you know this technique at above default, you may improve that to only -1 (or -1/per two dice)to damage. Your attack otherwise follows all the normal rules for Reversed Grip (MA, p. 111-112).

Forearm Weapon Parry

Hard

Default: prerequisite skill Parry-1.
Prerequisites: Brawling or Karate; cannot exceed prerequisite skill Parry.

Holding a Reach C or 1 weapon in Reversed Grip allows a special Brawling or Karate Parry at -1 (see MA p. 111). This technique allows buying off that penalty.

[Kalzazz]

I definitely like the Aggressive Armed Parry, but I think removing the option to have swing at all is to harsh and also doesn't fit with how I view such a thing happening . . . I might give an extra penalty for swinging though, as it seems like it could be a bit trickier, but not sure

(as a note, I also use the 'half damage on parrying unarmed attacks while armed' house rule, but I allow that half damage off of swing)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I definitely like the Aggressive Armed Parry, but I think removing the option to have swing at all is to harsh and also doesn't fit with how I view such a thing happening . . . I might give an extra penalty for swinging though, as it seems like it could be a bit trickier, but not sure

(as a note, I also use the 'half damage on parrying unarmed attacks while armed' house rule, but I allow that half damage off of swing)

My thinking was that even if you used a swinging motion, you lacked the time and opportunity to properly assume a stance that allowed you to utilise the leverage of your weapon. Nevertheless, I have now altered the technique in a way that I think both addresses this concern and allows for somewhat effective swinging parries by properly trained fighters.

[Kalzazz]

Hmm

Just taking a random character of mine as an example

17 ST, armed with a Fine edged rapier, with Weapon Master

So normally 1d+4 thrust or 3d+7 on a swing

Would be 1d+1 thrust or 3d+1 swing if swung

Hmm, how about a ST 19 character (popular on archers)?

Give the same weapon and WM

2d+5 thrust, 3d+9 sw normally

2d+2 thrust vs 3d+3 sw

What happens if we get to 27?

3d+7 thrust vs 5d+12 normally, turns to 3d+3 thr vs 5d+2 sw

Hmmm, in 'ranges not normally seen by characters', ST 100

Also took the perk I allow 'can ignore max ST on weapon' for the fine edged rapier

10d+22 thr, 12d+25 sw normally

with this tech, 10d+11 thr, 12d+1 sw

So 81 average vs 78

Okay, the problem of 'thrust will quickly become better than swing because -1 plus -1 per die is far more generous than -2 per die' does not seem to be a problem for 'most normal PC strengths'

It still feels wrong to me Ill admit, but I may just be hallucinating

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Icelander

*I wish some armed version of this existed. I know that armed Parries against unarmed attacks are Aggressive by default, but surely there is a continuum of more and less commitment to meeting force with force when holding a weapon. Also, it ought to be possible to meet armed attacks with an armed Aggressive Parry, either to wound the hand or arm of an attacker with a short weapon or to knock a longer weapon out of line. So far, however, I haven't come up with a good design of a Technique for it.

I asked this question myself a while back. My tentative houserule on the subject is that, firstly, weapons don't automatically inflict full damage on Parrying an unarmed attack; 1/2 damage (or even 1/2 thrust damage) is more appropriate. To improve this requires the Aggressive Parry technique, which may be usable against unarmed or (at a penalty) armed attacks, inflicting a higher proportion of weapon damage.

Your technique looks like a fine solution. I like that you included a "disarm" function as well.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Okay, the problem of 'thrust will quickly become better than swing because -1 plus -1 per die is far more generous than -2 per die' does not seem to be a problem for 'most normal PC strengths'

It still feels wrong to me Ill admit, but I may just be hallucinating

Seems balanced to me, at running the numbers. Potential problems would be more along the low end of the scale of ST, but since this is a 'free' attack, that's not much of a problem. Any cut or imp weapon will do a minimum of 1 points of injury against an unarmoured foe, which should discourage unarmed people from punching armed ones. Especially since I tend to be rather not-nice about wounds, what with the extended wounding rules from MA (like Partial Injuries and more crippling injuries), bleeding, infection and suchlike.

And I apply the Shock penalty to Active Defences (-1 per -2 of Shock), have be halved at every one of your turns (instead of disappearing after the first) and force Will rolls* to avoid Stun every time you are wounded. So being wounded, even a small wound, really sucks.

That being said, for normal humans with knives and ST 10, I'm pretty sure halving the damage for unarmed parries is kinder than giving a -4 (or -2/per die) to thr-based attacks or a -6 (or -3/per die) to sw-based ones. With these numbers, the damage of non-Aggressive Parries with the knife is going to be 1d-6 imp or cut, which is always just one point of injury.

I might need to give some sort of bonus, both to normal Parry damage with weapons as well as Armed Aggressive Parry, when defending against unarmed people. But if I want to remain consistent with normal Aggressive Parry, that's hard to justify.

*Adjusted by appropriate modifiers from the Fright Check rules (of which the most important is +5 for 'heat of combat) as well as by anything that would modify a Knockdown roll. Also, some of my own, more severe Knockdown modifiers, such as -2 for a Crippling injury and some hit location ones.