DR of shields? Why so much higher than ordinary slab of wood?

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

Hmmm serching "shields + DR" yields me only one relevant thread, and I'm none the wiser for that one......

I wrote this one on shield materials
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...ield+essential

At the time there were a few things that took wood and made it a shield.

Laminating wood - Cross laminating wood reinforces it through distribution of impact forces on perpendicular woodgrains.

Leather overlays - I was amazed at this one. Turns out a thin layer of leather keeps the wood from spintering and gives a shiled a LOT more life.

Binding - Metal bands go along way toward keeping the shield together. Used on the circumfrence or just stout iron bars keeping the planks together.

Those are the three basic technologies that take a bit of wood and turn it into a shield.

Nymdok

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by hige

I almost agree with you.
If DR is for thickness, Cover DR (not HP) is also for thickness (and mass/area).

DR also includes PD. Armour is specifically shaped to help deflect blows. Its DR is higher than a flat plate of similar material. Only the rare fluke shot that hits at 90 degrees would impart its full energy into the armour. These flukes should not be used to justify an artificially low DR but can be subsumed into critical hits.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

DR also includes PD. Armour is specifically shaped to help deflect blows. Its DR is higher than a flat plate of similar material. Only the rare fluke shot that hits at 90 degrees would impart its full energy into the armour. These flukes should not be used to justify an artificially low DR but can be subsumed into critical hits.

That makes sense. I only wish the DR/HP tables for materials listed some modifier for shape/geometry. Like "Non-flat surface (like body armour plates) DR x 1,5" or x2 or whatever.

[benz72]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

DR also includes PD. Armour is specifically shaped to help deflect blows. Its DR is higher than a flat plate of similar material. Only the rare fluke shot that hits at 90 degrees would impart its full energy into the armour. These flukes should not be used to justify an artificially low DR but can be subsumed into critical hits.

Since shields tens to be either flat or shallowly convex (on the side being struk) how does this play into the increased DR of shields over shield material not fromed into a shield.

Sorry if I'm not getting it, but I don't see the connection.

[weby]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

DR also includes PD. Armour is specifically shaped to help deflect blows. Its DR is higher than a flat plate of similar material. Only the rare fluke shot that hits at 90 degrees would impart its full energy into the armour. These flukes should not be used to justify an artificially low DR but can be subsumed into critical hits.

So the Cover DR table in basic set should be changed too then? I mean according to it a shield thickness wood slab is way low DR.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by weby

So the Cover DR table in basic set should be changed too then? I mean according to it a shield thickness wood slab is way low DR.

Don't think so but I only have to worry about shields ;) A typical GURPS shield consists of a composite of wood, hide, and/or metal, which is not the same as a wood slab. Low Tech will give these shields a DR of 4. HP is calculated based on its weight. There is an option to create a "light" variant which will only have DR 2. A cheap or improvised option might only have DR 1, which would be consistent with the Cover DR Table.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by benz72

Since shields tens to be either flat or shallowly convex (on the side being struk) how does this play into the increased DR of shields over shield material not fromed into a shield.

Sorry if I'm not getting it, but I don't see the connection.

The point is to stop people trying to equate shields with body armour. Armour works differently.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by benz72

Since shields tens to be either flat or shallowly convex (on the side being struk) how does this play into the increased DR of shields over shield material not fromed into a shield.

Sorry if I'm not getting it, but I don't see the connection.

ARGUMENTS FOR CURVATURE => MORE DR
The argument for curvature is simply that we know that a dome/arch shaped structure can take higher amounts of force before breaking thus leading to an increased DR. Also, As its curved, its much more difficult to get a square (impact normal to the surface of the shield) hit on the shield.


ARGUMENTS AGAINST CURVATURE => MORE DR
The problem with geometry is that the curvature may not be as much of a factor as you might think.

First, shields seldom take blows squarely when used properly.

When it does, your counting on either enough counter force from the defender to resist the weapon blow enough to cause brakage.

For example, if you have a board dangling from a rope, its very difficult to break with impact even if you use a weapon. If you clamp it in a vice, the same board becomes much easier to break.

In either case, the curvature doesnt really matter at all.

Between the two, I never really came to a definitive resolution.

Nymdok

[Kalzazz]

Hmm. From boffer experience (since this apparently can be discussed), its pretty tricky to simultaneously strike with two equal length weapons, since your usually trying to hit with the last couple inches and thus, have to position your body and feet more or less square on with your foe or do other weird things, so, doable but tricky, and usually extremely telegraphing. Usually with two swords or daggers or other similar sized weapons would just switch off between fighting left or right handed and the offhand weapon would just be used for the occasional flavor swipe or the odd guard (and also prevented tiredness from setting in if a fight was taking a while as you could swap which arm was getting the main workout)

However, at least for me (it didnt seem a widespread fighting style), it was ridiculously easy to wield a longsword in one hand, and a significantly longer weapon like a short glaive in the other, and then just fight as you would normally with a single sword, except in the background your other arm/hand is flailing the long weapon in the general direction of the enemy and occasionally being used to guard (I strapped a shield to the same arm with the glaive, for extra passive defense and the ability to consciously block arrows)

Not that the offhand attacks were particularly fast or accurate or anything with the glaive, but are very easy to do

Weirdly for Boffers and LARP, shields are much more expensive and tricky to make than a PVC pipe and a fun noodle that passes as a sword

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Weirdly for Boffers and LARP, shields are much more expensive and tricky to make than a PVC pipe and a fun noodle that passes as a sword

Not really that weird, in LARP & Boffer, you have to assume that those around you aren't armored, unlike in say, SCA-style combat.

It's harder to "nerf" a shield in that sense. I have, in fact, caused someone to knock himself down in a LARP by scaring him so badly that he panicked and ran headfirst into the shield of the guy following him - he went down like a poleaxed steer. ("Hold" time!) He was fine, but he was definitely knocked for a loop.