should a "Ricochet" attack using boomerang be possible in realistic games? how hard?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Plane

there's less in the way of batarang delay though

If you were to take this kind of approach to this problem, you are going to fall well below the resolution of 3d6 probability. This is the random motion of a small object tumbling in free space colliding with the random motions of a slightly larger object attached to an arm. Can it happen? Sure. You can also win a state lottery jackpot, just not with odds of 1/216 or better.

There's a lot of ways to do this in GURPS. Area Affect on innate attack, Throwing Art Rapid Strike, wildcard points from Ninja! etc.None of them should actually pay any attention to the actual physics here, because Batman.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There's the long range shots rule in Tactical Shooting.

They allow shooter skill to compensate. It would be better to just give a skill cap or a separately rolled miss chance.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you were to take this kind of approach to this problem, you are going to fall well below the resolution of 3d6 probability. This is the random motion of a small object tumbling in free space colliding with the random motions of a slightly larger object attached to an arm.

If you think of guys who throw a spinning axe in a way "I'm guaranteed to hit with the sharp end" with enough skill, isn't it conceivable when Batman throws a batarang he's competently planning "the last inch of the right wing of my batarang is going to hit the barrel of this gun" ?

If he can guarantee that outcome and predict where the gun will be held, and where the 2nd gunman will be holding his gun (ie they're both going to be pointing the gun at him, obviously) it seems like he should be able to know how that rotation from right-wing to pistol-barrel is going to spin off to the next guy?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Plane

If he can guarantee that outcome and predict where the gun will be held

That's the problem. He can't. It's not a hard task, it's a task that requires information he doesn't have (absent precognition or other supernatural abilities), and is therefore impossible.

May I ask why you even bothered to ask this question if you were unwilling to accept that the answer is "no"?

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Plane

If you think of guys who throw a spinning axe in a way "I'm guaranteed to hit with the sharp end" with enough skill, isn't it conceivable when Batman throws a batarang he's competently planning "the last inch of the right wing of my batarang is going to hit the barrel of this gun" ?

An impact on the last inch of the wing will exert a lot of torque and stop the rotation, whereupon the boomerang will stop flying.

[DanHoward]

Even if he just throws it without hitting anything, it won't return in most situations. Real returning boomerangs require a huge amount of space and even experts have trouble getting them to come back to their point of origin.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Farmer

Plane - the question posed was "realistic". The answer is "no".

Originally Posted by kenclary

Nor is any interpretation of Batman realistic.

Originally Posted by Farmer

As a kid I threw boomerangs at things often enough - not just high in the air to get them to return.

Bear in mind they are rotating and aligned mostly parallel to the ground and rely on that to generate lift. If you interfere with that (by hitting something) it tends to randomly.go somewhere very close with not much force and fall to the ground.

The above quoted for truth.

When a boomerang is flying it rotates a lot faster than it moves. It has to for the side that is rotating opposite to the gross motion to produce lift (the fact that it produces less lift than the side rotating forward is what makes the boomerang's path curve in the air). The result is that when a boomerang collides with something it does so with a tip, and the collision checks the rotation. Which is why boomerangs stop flying when they hit something, and fall to the ground not far from the point of collision.

The thing that happens in the OP's cartoon show is not realistic.

Originally Posted by Farmer

You asked if it was realistically possible. It's not. If you want to bring in cinematic factors to enable it then go ahead. But it's not realistic, for all the reasons already given by numerous people. It's cinematic, and absolutely fine in that context.

I'd say it was more extreme than cinema. I'd call it "cartoonish". If I saw it in a movie, no matter how good the CGI animation, I wouldn't react "wow!" but "bull!".

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by Plane

If you think of guys who throw a spinning axe in a way "I'm guaranteed to hit with the sharp end" with enough skill, isn't it conceivable when Batman throws a batarang he's competently planning "the last inch of the right wing of my batarang is going to hit the barrel of this gun" ?

I think of most axe throwing as an exhibition trick, with carefully controlled range and timing.

Batman may be thinking that, but Batman isn't real, and can't be real. It's fundamentally a poetic license to do "badass" imaginary stuff.

If he can guarantee that outcome and predict where the gun will be held...

Batman can, but that's a perfect example of how Batman isn't realistic.

In GURPS, it's most straightforward to do it with cinematic (etc) mechanics. It's probably comparatively painful to do it with "just" very-high skill levels. And you're welcome to do it that way. Doesn't make it realistic (doesn't make those super-high skill levels realistic, either).

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Plane

If you think of guys who throw a spinning axe in a way "I'm guaranteed to hit with the sharp end"

No one in real life exists who can "guarantee" this. Not with an axe, or a knife, or anything rotation. At fixed distances and unmoving targets, the success level can be extremely high. As soon as the distance isn't the same, the stance isn't the same, the target isn't the same or is moving, success plummets.

GURPS is generous when it comes to success and damage of thrown rotating weapons, because it's below the granularity of the system to deal with this, so it's abstracted into a simple mechanic. That's good - it fits the system and it works and lets people have fun. It's still generous.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That's the problem.
He can't. It's not a hard task, it's a task that requires information he doesn't have (absent precognition or other supernatural abilities), and is therefore impossible.

Batman's knowledge of the criminal element probably borders on precog: he can't literally see the future but he can imagine it pretty reliably.

Originally Posted by Agemegos

An impact on the last inch of the wing will exert a lot of torque and stop the rotation, whereupon the boomerang will stop flying.

It stops rotation in the original direction (unless maybe it sliced through due to being a sharpened baterang) but then there is also force exerted in the reverse direction (like a bouncing basketball) which I'm positing could send it to a tertiary location.

Like for example in this dribble pass: https://giffiles.alphacoders.com/561/5616.gif

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Even if he just throws it without hitting anything, it won't return in most situations. Real returning boomerangs require a huge amount of space and even experts have trouble getting them to come back to their point of origin.

We're not talking about it returning to Batman (who looks to be 3-4 yards away) but rather to hit the gunman adjacent to his buddy (looks to be only 1 yard away) which should be easier because it only requires a 90-degree turn instead of a 180-degree turn, and has to travel a shorter distance.

Originally Posted by kenclary

I think of most axe throwing as an exhibition trick, with carefully controlled range and timing.

Batman may be thinking that, but Batman isn't real, and can't be real. It's fundamentally a poetic license to do "badass" imaginary stuff.

Batman can, but that's a perfect example of how Batman isn't realistic.

When a thrown object hits another object and bounces off, it has to go somewhere.

If that somewhere could include hitting a 2nd gun, then it would be possible.

If it's possible then there are variables an expert might adjust to make it more likely to happen.

Batman and many DC fighters are obviously meant to be higher skill than the best fighters on our earth. I don't think someone being higher skilled than IRL necessarily means "unrealistic" though.

Realistic to me just means "no supernatural or exotic stuff" and "no rules that make difficult things too easy".

Originally Posted by Farmer

No one in real life exists who can "guarantee" this. Not with an axe, or a knife, or anything rotation. At fixed distances and unmoving targets, the success level can be extremely high. As soon as the distance isn't the same, the stance isn't the same, the target isn't the same or is moving, success plummets.

Not looking for a guarantee here: even Batman can crit-fail with 30 skill punches or whatev. Just the possibility and what penalties should be applied to actually achieve such an outcome.

You can say for example it's "unrealistic" to shoot a Falcon flying at max speed (Move 24) in the eyeball but it's technically achievable in a "realistic" using -9 hit location, -4 SM, -7 speed/range, for a total of -20 to hit. You just need skill 30ish with your gun :)

For it to be "realistic" to have skill 30 with your rifle then you'd prob use B294's "Maintaining Skills" requiring it to be used once per day 'in the field' (or 1 hour study outside the field) to avoid the IQ check to see if you lose a level.

Batman, who we know actually has trained to use a gun (forget the name but trained w/ some sniper while becoming Batman) probably doesn't have it beyond skill+10 since there's no way he shoots a guni n the field daily (and def wouldn't have time to train an hour per day with it)

He might in theory have it at skill+10 though since that only requires practicing once per 6 months, which he probably does with all his skills.