should a "Ricochet" attack using boomerang be possible in realistic games? how hard?

[Plane]

I was watching the OP for Batman TAS and of course when he disarms a pair of gunmen using a single Batarang this got my GURPS wheels turning...

https://youtu.be/MhdZtFWyZGo

You don't actually see Batman catch his batarang so it doesn't contrast with B226's Thrown Weapon: Stick.

LT72 says "returning versions are unsuitable as weapons and in any event wouldn’t return if they hit." but we're not actually talking about returning to the thrower, just hitting a 2nd target in an adjacent hex after bouncing off the 1st.

The best I can think of is using P166's optional rule for Ricochets but it's defined as a non-realistic rule to emulate comic-book physics. If taking a "Batman is realistic he's just a skill god" approach I'm wondering how much tougher than "-2 per bounce" you should be when using this rule.

I was thinking maybe something like when using the speed/range table, instead of just adding the 2nd distance (between thugs) maybe you should progressively double the distance of each extra step?

So for example if it was 3 yards to the first thug, 2 yards between 1st and 2nd, 1 yard between 2nd and third, you would do 1*3+2*2+1*4 = 11 yards, instead of just treating it like 6 yards.

- -

Also regarding what Batman does immediately after... does that seem like a Flying Tackle where he used Breakfall to turn the normal result of a Flying Tackle (you fell on the ground) into just a Crouch?

I'm thinking the way Batman goes on the defensive (dodges 3 punches: a left cross, a right upper, then another right cross; Batman does a left uppercut to the body to Stop-Hit the guy's 4th punch, a right haymaker) that maybe he's doing Evaluates to regain some Action Points?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Plane

I was watching the OP for Batman TAS and of course when he disarms a pair of gunmen using a single Batarang this got my GURPS wheels turning...

https://youtu.be/MhdZtFWyZGo

You don't actually see Batman catch his batarang so it doesn't contrast with B226's Thrown Weapon: Stick.

LT72 says "returning versions are unsuitable as weapons and in any event wouldn’t return if they hit." but we're not actually talking about returning to the thrower, just hitting a 2nd target in an adjacent hex after bouncing off the 1st.

The best I can think of is using P166's optional rule for Ricochets

Richchet won't get you there. It allows you to bounce your attack off surfaces, but it is still an attack against a single target. It does not permit you to use a single attack to affect multiple foes. There's little doubt that Batman's batarang would have disarmed three thugs of their firearms, if there had been three thugs that reasonably close together. As such, it seems clear that what is occuring is an attack with an Area Effect enhancement.

but it's defined as a non-realistic rule to emulate comic-book physics. If taking a "Batman is realistic he's just a skill god" approach I'm wondering how much tougher than "-2 per bounce" you should be when using this rule.

I was thinking maybe something like when using the speed/range table, instead of just adding the 2nd distance (between thugs) maybe you should progressively double the distance of each extra step?

So for example if it was 3 yards to the first thug, 2 yards between 1st and 2nd, 1 yard between 2nd and third, you would do 1*3+2*2+1*4 = 11 yards, instead of just treating it like 6 yards.

Not quite doubling the distance from 6 yards to 11 yards only gives a further -2 penalty on the speed/range table which amounts to a "one more bounce" penalty which seems inadequate. Among the factors that a realistic physics rule for "richochet" attacks would need to account for, P166 calls out DR and HP of the surfaces involved as well as angle of incidence. It sounds like something you'd need to be dead lucky to pull off, likely a -10 or more, and that's before adding in a -2 for the very first bounce and any lighting penalties. A realistic skill-god Batman needs at least a batarang skill 20+ to have a fifty-fifty chance at a richochet shot.

- -

Also regarding what Batman does immediately after... does that seem like a Flying Tackle where he used Breakfall to turn the normal result of a Flying Tackle (you fell on the ground) into just a Crouch?

Possibly, although I'd be more inclined to think of it as a successful use of Breakfall coupled with Acrobatics as a complementary skill.

I'm thinking the way Batman goes on the defensive (dodges 3 punches: a left cross, a right upper, then another right cross; Batman does a left uppercut to the body to Stop-Hit the guy's 4th punch, a right haymaker) that maybe he's doing Evaluates to regain some Action Points?

That entire sequence starts about halfway through the six second mark with Batman's Stop-Hit just a tiny bit after the eight second mark, so the whole thing takes two seconds, or two GURPS turns. Batman takes an All-Out Defense for his first turn, and Defend and Attack for his second. There's no time for him to take an Evaluate maneuver.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

That entire sequence starts about halfway through the six second mark with Batman's Stop-Hit just a tiny bit after the eight second mark, so the whole thing takes two seconds, or two GURPS turns. Batman takes an All-Out Defense for his first turn, and Defend and Attack for his second. There's no time for him to take an Evaluate maneuver.

why's it need to be all-out defense? I doubt he'd actually need the +2 to dodge from AOD:determined

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Plane

The best I can think of is using P166's optional rule for Ricochets but it's defined as a non-realistic rule to emulate comic-book physics. If taking a "Batman is realistic he's just a skill god" approach I'm wondering how much tougher than "-2 per bounce" you should be when using this rule.

In a realistic game, it simply doesn't work because objects don't actually bounce that way.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Plane

If taking a "Batman is realistic he's just a skill god" approach . . .

. . . you'll fail to match many of his tricks. He clearly talked his original GM into a really nice limitation value for "not obviously superpowered" and sticks to the letter of the wording, but has worked on his image to the point where people believe he can do all sorts of things. See "I'm Batman, and I can breathe in space!"

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Plane

why's it need to be all-out defense? I doubt he'd actually need the +2 to dodge from AOD:determined

He doesn't. I was thinking in 3e terms, where you normally made one attack and one acive defense per turn. If you made two attacks, you lost your active defense and it was called an All-Out Attack. Likewise if you took two active defenses, you lost your Attack and it was called an All-Out Defense. It was my short hand for Defended twice (with no attack) in the first second. Sorry for the confusion.

[Rendu]

My two cents, from a similar discussion of Captain America's shield:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=19

Running a Batman with strictly real-world rules gives you a corpse in a funny suit.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Rendu

Running a Batman with strictly real-world rules gives you a corpse in a funny suit.

Indeed.

(Humorously, The Adventures of Dr McNinja take place in a cinematic setting. It's indicated to be a worldline that exists at the intersection of our own mundane world and The Radical Lands, a world of over-the-top cinematics. So a weird mix of mundanity and cinematic awesomeness suffuses the world, creating... interesting effects.)

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Rendu

My two cents, from a similar discussion of Captain America's shield:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=19

Running a Batman with strictly real-world rules gives you a corpse in a funny suit.

I've done it two different ways:
- Originally I made the shield a gadget with a ricochet or multiple target IA. Effectively the "return to hand" was a special effect.

- My preferred approach now is to use Imbuements. Cap and Thor use Project Blow so their weapons "return" at the end of the turn. Batman can explain any number of tricks as throwing batarangs (Annihilating Weapon + Telescoping + Extra Attack or Rapid Strike in this case).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Rendu

Running a Batman with strictly real-world rules gives you a corpse in a funny suit.

Rich sadist who beats up homeless drug addicts and impoverished minors also works.