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Old 10-03-2012, 07:35 PM   #21
Icelander
 
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Default Re: [MA] Southern Kung Fu, the Common Folk and Tong Hatchetmen

I've altered Armed Aggressive Parry again, this time to ensure that unarmed attacks on armed defenders remain appropriately dangerous and also to incorporate a feature that I've always thought that Aggressive Parry ought to have had from the start.

I've added a damage bonus against unarmed attacks, a +2 or +1/per die. Justified, in that unarmed attackers have to get very close, usually evading your weapon on the way in, and it is therefore particularly convenient to meet their attacks by striking into their blow.

There's also this new rule, which applies to both Aggressive Parry and Armed Aggressive Parry*:

"Against a Defensive Attack, the damage you do with this technique has a further -2 or -1/per die penalty, whichever is worse. When used to defend against a Committed Attack (Strong), however, you get a +1 (or +1/per two dice) to damage and against All-Out Attack (Strong) you do +2 (or +1/per die) to damage."

*And normal armed Parries against unarmed attacks, too.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:13 PM   #22
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Default Punching Techniques

Just because most punches are a matter of combat options rather than techniques, that doesn't mean that there's any need for all punches to be the same.

Jabs are archetypical Defensive Attacks, yes, but there are varieties of Jabs that are designed to do something other than merely allow you to keep up your defences while launching a probing attack. They remain based off Defensive Attack, but may have other, minor effects as well. And while the spectrum of Defensive Attack through Attack, Committed Attack (Strong) and All-Out Attack (Strong) provides a neat way to pack more or less power into a punch, a defensive focus isn't the only reason to deliver a less than full power punch.

Here are three punching Techniques appropriate for some styles of CMA as well as the Sweet Science of our West.*

*One of them can actually work with weapons as well as bare hands.
Defensive Jab
Average
Default: Boxing-1, Brawling-1 or Karate-1.
Prerequisites: Boxing, Brawling or Karate; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.


A Defensive Jab is a quick punch launched to spoil an opponent's concentration and attacking rhythm. It is based on Defensive Attack (MA p. 100), but uses the rules given here instead of the normal rules for that maneuver, where appropriate. For all other purposes, this counts as a Defensive Attack.
As you must launch your punch from an upright stance and without dropping your guard by lowering your hands or attempting a strike at an awkward angle, permissable target selection is very narrow. Against a standing foe, the only valid targets are upper chest (target location 9; -1), arm (-2) or face (-5).
Damage is -1 relative to a normal Defensive Attack punch, i.e. thr-4 cr or thr-2 cr and -1/per die, whichever is worse. Skill bonuses affect this normally. The defensive benefit you get applies to your Parry, but it is higher than for a normal Defensive Attack. Until your next turn, you get a +1 bonus to your Parry with the underlying skill. If attacked by the target of your Defensive Jab, the Parry bonus becomes +2. Furthermore, if your Defensive Jab hits and your opponent fails to defend, he also suffers a -2 to attack you on his next turn. This is in addition to any Shock penalty.
Fast Strikes
Hard
Default: prerequisite skill -3.
Prerequisites: Boxing, Brawling, Karate or appropriate Melee Weapon skill; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.


This technique consists of two punches or weapon strikes launched in rapid succession at the same foe. In boxing, it might be the beginning of a one-one-two combination or simply a series of stinging jabs, while in Wing Chun it forms the basis of many 'chain punch' combinations. Armed versions exist, for example, in knife-fighting, fencing and many spear styles, usually taking the form of a series of swift cuts or quick darting stabs. Because of the speed of the attacks, there is less power behind each one.
Fast Strikes must be aimed at the upper body of a standing foe, i.e. the head, torso, arm or neck (exception, if his SM is +1 yours, you may attack anything except his feet). Damage is at -2 or -1/per die, whichever is worse. Furthermore, both the attacks of Fast Strikes must be aimed at the same opponent.
Fast Strikes is a special case of the Rapid Strike rules (p. B370) and uses these rules instead of the standard ones for Rapid Strike. You may replace one attack with two Fast Strikes. Unlike a Dual-Weapon Attack, Fast Strikes can be combined with Rapid Strike and Dual-Weapon Attack, but with certain restrictions. Regardless of whether you have Extra Attack, you may still only make one Rapid Strike per turn and that includes Fast Strikes. On the other hand, you may add an extra attack to a combination (or Combination MA p. 80) including Fast Strikes, at -6 to skill to the total Rapid Strike. In campaigns where extended Rapid Strikes are allowed, you may use those rules as normal, counting Fast Strikes as one and not two attacks. That also applies to Combinations you wish to buy up. Any additional attacks added to the two Fast Strikes are made at normal skill for normal damage, may make use of any Technique otherwise legal in the situation and are not required (or allowed) to be Fast Strikes. The exception to that is if you use both hands for the combination. If you have a Ready weapon or are able to make unarmed attacks with both hands, you may combine Fast Strikes with Dual-Weapon Attack (or Extra Attack). To do so, simply add up the penalties. In any case where you make a combination (or Combination) including Fast Strikes, all of your attacks that turn must be aimed at the same opponent.
Set-Up Jab
Average
Default: Boxing-1, Brawling-1 or Karate-1.
Prerequisites: Boxing, Brawling or Karate; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.


A Set-Up Jab is used to start a combination or set-up the opponent up for a heavier punch. Unlike other jabs, it is not based on the Defensive Attack (MA p. 100) maneuver. Instead, it can be used with any maneuver that allows an attack.
The jab must be targeted to the uppermost area of your foe, which means that on a standing foe, the only valid targets are upper chest (target location 9; -1), arm (-2) or face (-5).
The punch does thr-3 cr or thr-1 cr and -1/per die damage, whichever is worse. Skill bonuses affect this normally. In addition, if your Set-Up Jab hits and your opponent fails to defend, he gets a -2 to Parry and Dodge to his defence against your next attack, as long as it is launched before the end of your next turn.
Comments? Suggestions?
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:02 PM   #23
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Default Wing Chun variant for my campaign

(Haihu) Wing Chun
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________5 points


Wing Chun is described on MA p. 203. This is a write-up for a version of it that is practised by Shou (Chinese-equivalent) emigrants living in Western cities after an invasion by steppe nomad horsemen devastated parts of their native land. It is a practical, combative style, even more so than modern Wing Chun. It includes a full body of knife techniques in addition to the butterfly sword forms of Wing Chun. The nomenclature is inspired by the mythological beast representing the cardinal direction of their new home in relation to the Eternal Empire of Shou Lung; Xi Fang Bai Hu, the White Tiger of the West. As with all the White Tiger forms of traditional styles, the emphasis is on street-readiness and survival, for people who are at the very least perceived as outsiders and may be actively persecuted. Weapons are easily concealable or explainable as something else and situational awareness is as important as martial skill.

Both armed and unarmed techniques rely heavily on rapid and exhausting chains of attacks meant to overwhelm the foe's defences. Spending FP on Rapid Strikes is very much in character and Combinations, Dual-Weapon Attack and Fast Strikes are frequently used to increase the number of attacks launched per turn. Engagement distance is usually short, even when armed. Parries or strikes often set up grapples or locks, which in turn serve to enable crippling or lethal strikes with a fist or weapon.

Fighting knives are usually single-edged and range in size from Small Knife hold-out weapons to Large Knives or chopping blades similar in design to smaller butterfly swords, which use the stats for a Kukri. Except when using the larger chopping blades (which might use adapted butterfly sword techniques), the knife is held in an underhand grip. Both one- and two-knife forms are taught. In either case, strikes are usually adapted punches and like punches may follow a grapple or lock.

Common targets of armed attacks are along the centerline of the opponent, i.e. the torso, neck, head and the upper arms and legs (specifically the Vein/Arteries). If given an opening, stylists frequently aim Karate and Knife strikes at the Vitals or Neck. Whether armed or unarmed, stylists often combine high-line strikes against an upper body target with a low-line kick against the legs or feet. With the butterfly swords, this may instead take the form of an attack against the neck combined with one against the thigh (Vein/Arteries). Any such attempt to divide the attention of the defender and require him to assume two contradictory defensive stances at the same time are best modelled as Deceptive Attack applied to both attacks, whether they are made using Dual-Weapon Attack, Rapid Strike or by some other method.

Skills: Karate; Knife; Shortsword; Wrestling.
Techniques: Arm Lock; Armed Grapple (Knife or Shortsword); Beat; Bind Weapon (Shortsword); Close Combat (Knife or Shortsword); Counterattack; Disarming (Shortsword); Elbow Strike; Fast Strikes (Karate or Shortsword); Feint (Karate, Knife or Shortsword); Forearm Weapon Parry; Hammer Fist; Jam; Knee Strike; Leg Grapple; Leg Lock; Retain Weapon (Knife or Shortsword); Reverse Grip (Knife or Shortsword); Sweep (Karate); Targeted Attack (List below); Underhand Slash (Knife or Shortsword).
Targeted Attacks: Targeted Attack (Karate Kick/Leg); Targeted Attack (Karate Kick/Leg Joint); Targeted Attack (Karate Punch/Neck); Targeted Attack (Karate Punch/Vitals); Targeted Attack (Karate Stamp Kick/Foot); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Face); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Neck); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Vitals); Targeted Attack (Knife Underhand Slash/Face); Targeted Attack (Knife Underhand Slash/Neck); Targeted Attack (Karate Stamp Kick/Foot Joint); Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Face); Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Leg Veins/Arteries); Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Neck); Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Neck Vein/Arteries); Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Skull).
Combinations: Karate Fast Strikes Punch/Torso + Karate Fast Strikes Punch/Torso + Karate Kick/Leg Joint; Karate Dual-Weapon Attack Fast Strikes Punch/Torso + Karate Dual-Weapon Attack Fast Strikes Punch/Torso + Karate Dual-Weapon Attack Fast Strikes Punch/Torso + Karate Dual-Weapon Attack Fast Strikes Punch/Torso + Karate Punch/Neck; Shortsword Arm Lock + Karate Sweep; Shortsword Beat + Shortsword Dual-Weapon Attack Swing/Leg Vein/Arteries + Shortsword Dual-Weapon Attack Swing/Neck; Shortsword Swing/Torso + Shortsword Swing/Torso + Karate Kick/Leg Joint); Wrestling Arm Lock + Karate Punch/Arm Joint; Wrestling Leg Grapple + Karate Sweep; Wrestling Arm Lock + Knife Reverse Grip Thrust/Neck; Wrestling Arm Lock + Knife Reverse Grip Thrust/Vitals.
Cinematic Skills: Blind-Fighting, Immovable Stance; Mental Strength; Power Blow; Sensitivity.
Cinematic Techniques: Dual-Weapon Attack (Karate, Knife or Shortsword); Dual-Weapon Defence (Karate, Knife or Shortsword).
Perks: Improvised Weapons (Karate, Knife or Shortsword); Mobile Parry (Shortsword); Off-Hand Weapon Training; Special Set-Up (Karate Parry > Arm Lock); Technique Adaptation (Counterattack); Unusual Training (Bind Weapon defaults to Shortsword).


Optional Traits

Advantages: Ambidexterity; Combat Reflexes; Enhanced Parry (Barehanded, Shortsword or All).
Disadvantages: Overconfidence; Reputation (Thug); Social Stigma (Criminal or Second-Class Citizen).
Skills: Boating (Sailboat or Unpowered); Fast-Draw (Knife or Shortsword); Holdout; Judo; Observation; Seamanship; Staff; Streetwise; Two-Handed Sword.
Perks: Naval Training.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:59 AM   #24
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Default Summary of Thread

To perhaps narrow down what it is I want forumites to do with the information presented in this thread so far, I thought I'd collect my still-unanswered questions together with solicited-areas-for-comment.

1) Does anyone know what areas are usually targeted by armed attacks in Wing Chun or any other armed form of a Chinese Martial Art?

Obviously, this would not include information already listed in GURPS Martial Arts. I'm rather looking for real-world knowledge, knowledge of theory or even knowledge from (at least quasi-)realistic-looking movies.

I'm looking for this because the armed forms are often presented as optional, or at least addenda to an unarmed focus, for the CMA/Kung Fu styles as they appear in Martial Arts, so they do not receive the same detail of techniques and guidelines for roleplaying combat as the unarmed forms. Since I want to distinguish knife-fighters/hatchetmen/swordsmen/etc. coming from different cultural or style backgrounds from one another as much as possible, I'd like to know stuff like how choice of combat Maneuvers, combat options and target selection for a nanquan-inspired knife-fighter could differ from one with a background in kuntao, savate or the Dagger Fighting style presented in MA.

2) When using a horse bench in combat, what skills should one require?

Striking with it at full power and extension is not a problem. That's Two-Handed Axe/Mace, with maybe -1 or -2 to skill as an improvised weapon and a damage in the neighbourhood of sw+4 (it weighs 15-20 lbs., even if it doesn't have striking surfaces as effective as a mace).

Two-handed use for less-powerful strikes is an open question, however. Would one call it Polearm and give it lower MinST and lower damage, or would one just make use of Defensive Attacks with Two-Handed Axe/Mace skill? I'm inclined to allow both, as there is clearly some overlap between two-handed balanced use of a horse bench and some Staff/Polearm techniques. Also, since the typical grip isn't one where the weight of the bench is concentrated at the end of a lever, like the basic assumption for Two-Handed Axe/Mace is, the MinST would hopefully be lower. While it is a heavy weapon, it's not so heavy so to be unusable by everyone except the biggest men.

Clearly, defensive work with it could often make use of the rules on LT p. 114 for 'Improvised Shields'. While it's common to hold it in two hands for defence, this is not required, and the legs of the bench probably qualify as improvised handgrips anyway.

The problem I have is that Shield doesn't have any MinST requirement and so there is no reason for anyone to use the weapon in both hands instead of one. Even Defensive Grip doesn't apply with shields, so it can't be explained as that.*

In the real world, of course, the bench weighs enough to make one-handed use difficult for most people. Training can help with that, but that might also be because the horse bench is often regarded as a tool for building arm and wrist strength as much as a traditional weapon.

Used one-handed to bash and defend with Shield skill, anyone with ST from 8-10 (depending on bench weight) can handle it without penalties. That's way too easy. Granted, the damage from such bashes is limited, less than using the weapon as an Axe/Mace would be, but just managing to block at full skill with it one-handed ought to require above average ST (or appropriate Perks).

Also, I suspect that one-handed use ought to be Axe/Mace, but as with two-handed use, the bench is rarely held in a way that has all the weight concentrated near the striking end. It's more usual to have the point of balance closer to the user, which weakens the blows you can launch with it, but ought to translate into a slightly more managable MinST than the monstrous ST 17-20 that it would require to use a 15-20 lbs. weapon in one-hand with typical mace techniques.

3) Does anyone have comments on the Techniques that appear in this thread? These are:

Armed Aggressive Parry
Defensve Jab
Fast Strikes
Forearm Weapon Parry
Set-Up Jab
Underhand Grip Defence
Underhand Slash


4) Does anyone have comments on the two styles that appear so far? These are:

Shuang Fu ('Double Axe'; an armed style designed as a body of weapon techniques taken in addition to an unarmed (sometimes including small weapons) style.
Haihu Wing Chun ('White Tiger Wing Chun (Which in turn has various translations, most evocative 'Eternal Springtime', but more probable 'In Praise of Springtime'; a version of Wing Chun for emigrants in crime-ridden Western cities of my campaign, including more armed techniques and knife-fighting forms) style.

*Though it's easy enough to house-rule that Defensive Grip can indeed apply to shields. It's just that with purpose-built ones, you rarely find yourself in a position where you'd want to be holding just the shield and no weapon.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:06 PM   #25
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Default Re: [MA] Southern Kung Fu, the Common Folk and Tong Hatchetmen

From my memories of the one time I took some Chinese martial arts classes, the three most common attacks were

1. Horizontal side to side slash at the abdomen (usually as a slash right to left, reverse, slash left to right . . . sometimes also done with two swords at the same time), usually from fairly close in with sword kept close to the body (actually more of a draw cut than a slash as usually were standing close enough to the target could punch it . . . goal being to try and get as much of the swords edge moving over the target as can)
2. Lunge and thrust at the abdomen involving dropping into a low stance and stabbing up as moving forwards . . . if done with a spear of Kwan Dao the second part of the move was to pull the tip back with a swat from the end of it. Also done with swords but don't remember any particular second part of move with a sword
3. From a distance slash at the leg from the knee up to the abdomen from side to side, reverse, and slash side to side again, using the last few inches of the sword or spear only

The swords I remember using were like this http://www.blackbeltshop.com/new%20images/1817.jpg
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:54 PM   #26
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Default Re: [MA] Southern Kung Fu, the Common Folk and Tong Hatchetmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
1. Horizontal side to side slash at the abdomen (usually as a slash right to left, reverse, slash left to right . . . sometimes also done with two swords at the same time), usually from fairly close in with sword kept close to the body (actually more of a draw cut than a slash as usually were standing close enough to the target could punch it . . . goal being to try and get as much of the swords edge moving over the target as can)
Swing cut, often launched from Close-Combat, aimed at Torso (simple version) or Abdomen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Lunge and thrust at the abdomen involving dropping into a low stance and stabbing up as moving forwards . . . if done with a spear of Kwan Dao the second part of the move was to pull the tip back with a swat from the end of it. Also done with swords but don't remember any particular second part of move with a sword
Trust at the Torso (simple) or Abdomen. If it's aimed just under the breastbone, it could be Vitals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
3. From a distance slash at the leg from the knee up to the abdomen from side to side, reverse, and slash side to side again, using the last few inches of the sword or spear only
Swing Cut at Leg or Leg Vein/Arteries.

Do you or anyone else recall some other targets? Maybe from wuxia movies?
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Wing Chun variant for my campaign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
(Haihu) Wing Chun
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________5 points

Techniques: Arm Lock; Armed Grapple (Knife or Shortsword); Beat; Bind Weapon (Shortsword); Close Combat (Knife or Shortsword); Counterattack; Disarming (Shortsword); Elbow Strike; Fast Strikes (Karate or Shortsword); Feint (Karate, Knife or Shortsword); Forearm Weapon Parry; Hammer Fist; Jam; Knee Strike; Leg Grapple; Leg Lock; Retain Weapon (Knife or Shortsword); Reverse Grip (Knife or Shortsword); Sweep (Karate); Targeted Attack (Karate Kick/Leg); Targeted Attack (Karate Kick/Leg Joint); Targeted Attack (Karate Punch/Neck); Targeted Attack (Karate Punch/Vitals); Targeted Attack (Karate Stamp Kick/Foot); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Face); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Neck); Targeted Attack (Knife Thrust/Vitals); Targeted Attack (Knife Underhand Slash/Face); Targeted Attack (Knife Underhand Slash/Neck); Targeted Attack (Karate Stamp Kick/Foot Joint); Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Face); Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Leg Veins/Arteries); Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Neck); Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Neck Vein/Arteries); Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Skull); Underhand Slash (Knife or Shortsword).[/COLOR]
I like the style over all, but I have two suggestions. The first is that you should narrow down the number of techniques, especially Targeted Attacks. This just seems like WAY too many, especially since nobody will be taking more than one or two for their character.

My other suggestion is that since this is now a primarily armed style using edged weapons, Pressure Points and Pressure Secrets are no longer very appropriate Cinematic skills. I'd drop them.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:43 PM   #28
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Default Re: Summary of Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
1) Does anyone know what areas are usually targeted by armed attacks in Wing Chun or any other armed form of a Chinese Martial Art?
Sadly I don't, my school focused on unarmed training, I barely started the butterfly sword forms before moving on to other styles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
3) Does anyone have comments on the Techniques that appear in this thread? These are:

Armed Aggressive Parry
Defensve Jab
Fast Strikes
Forearm Weapon Parry
Set-Up Jab
Underhand Grip Defence
Underhand Slash
I like most of these. Fast strikes especially is something that is realistic that GURPS doesn't handle well.

Defensive Jab feels too powerful, it gives the benefit of a AoD while allowing an Attack!

The Reverse Grip techniques, I'm a little iffy about. I like that there's a trade-off in the different grips, and I'm leary about it being bought off.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: Wing Chun variant for my campaign

Quote:
Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
I like the style over all, but I have two suggestions. The first is that you should narrow down the number of techniques, especially Targeted Attacks. This just seems like WAY too many, especially since nobody will be taking more than one or two for their character.
On the other hand, I find more detail good, less detail bad. And while it may be true that few or any characters will raise even a fraction of all the techniques, having a long list of them serves two purposes. First, it provides a 'menu' of techniques for stylists to attempt in a fight, even if they haven't improved them. Second, it allows two stylists to focus on very different combat tactics, by mastering completely different aspects of their art, but still remaining within the same continuum of expertise and showing similar combat philosophies.

It suits some martial arts to have few strikes be Targeted Attacks, instead focusing on the torso or even random hit locations (representing attacking whatever the foe leaves open). Wing Chun, however, due to the emphasis of controlling the rhythm of the fight, having strikes lead into others by forcing a reaction from the opponet, opening two gates, etc. feels like one where Targeted Attacks are the norm.

It does look rather cluttered, however. So I've broken Targeted Attacks away from the main Technique list and into their own sub-heading. Hopefully, it now looks cleaner and nicer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
My other suggestion is that since this is now a primarily armed style using edged weapons, Pressure Points and Pressure Secrets are no longer very appropriate Cinematic skills. I'd drop them.
Agreed. And done.

Dropping the 'mystical' secret strikes, both Pressure Points and Lethal, also provides a handy way to distinguish this Wing Chun style from Praying Mantis or Crane style. I know that 'normal' Wing Chun has a lot of the Crane hand forms, but it makes sense that a primarily armed variety would de-emphasise them.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:55 PM   #30
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Default Re: Summary of Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
Defensive Jab feels too powerful, it gives the benefit of a AoD while allowing an Attack!
Agreed and changed to grant the same +1 to Parry as Defensive Attack, with the +2 Parry only applying to attacks from the foe targeted by your Defensive Jab.

Note that while it does allow an attack, that attack is unlikely to do any actual damage unless the character is extremely strong. Even a ST 15 professional boxer (with the +2 damage bonus for Boxing skil) would be doing 1d-1 cr, which is hardly fight-ending. With gloves, 1d-3 cr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
The Reverse Grip techniques, I'm a little iffy about. I like that there's a trade-off in the different grips, and I'm leary about it being bought off.
I wouldn't want there to be no trade-off for the +1 thr damage granted by Reversed Grip.

On the other hand, a -2 to Parry and a -2 to swing damage is enough to make an ice-pick grip mostly useless to a knife-fighter duelling another knife-fighter. It's not unreasonable that training in a style that emphasises that grip could at least give you a fighting chance in a duel. After all, even if you improve both techniques, you're still at Reach C vs. his Reach C,1 on cuts and you have a -1 to swing damage to pay for your +1 to imp. For 5 points, you've made your chosen grip competative, but not clearly superior.

And assuming equal skill, your foe can have spent his 5 points on Enhanced Parry (Knife) or be using Main-Gauche instead of Knife skill, thus retaining a relative advantage in Parries for his sabre-grip.
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