[MA] Decompressing Historical Martial arts styles

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Originally Posted by Badmash

Richard Lester's Musketeers movies in the 70s had swordplay with both cloaks and daggers in the left hand. The fights were choreographed by William Hobbs, and I think he did a great job.

The actors did a lot of their own stunts, and fight scenes.

Confirm.

Rochefort (the late Christopher Lee) used sword and main-gauche; Athos (the late Oliver Reed) favored cloak and sword.

Reed, incidentally, in the fight by the water mill accidentally got about two inches of steel in the ribs -- so if you ever REALLY want to know what a man looks like when he is stabbed . . .

Saw it once -- don't need to see that scene again.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

Confirm.

Rochefort (the late Christopher Lee) used sword and main-gauche; Athos (the late Oliver Reed) favored cloak and sword.

Reed, incidentally, in the fight by the water mill accidentally got about two inches of steel in the ribs -- so if you ever REALLY want to know what a man looks like when he is stabbed . . .

Saw it once -- don't need to see that scene again.

Why am I not surprised that Reed was the one who got stabbed? He led an interesting life. Almost as interesting as Christopher Lee who talks about sword fighting here, with special attention to the Three/Four Musketeers. A little tangential but I thought people might be interested.

[Tuk the Weekah]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

I suspect also that it's a heck of a lot easier to give the cameraman (and the viewer) just one hand and one blade to keep in shot and in focus.

Shot & focus a little bit; safety & framing a lot. Most 'flynning' (as the cool kids call it) is done off-body, with little chance of striking the opponent. The fight is designed for the camera angles so that the blows look like they are much closer to the body than they are. But mostly, given the way fights are designed, two weapons from two angles is tougher to frame so that the combat looks lethal. The stunt performers probably are up to the challenge; you've a much more limited choice if you want a DP who can frame two-handed fight scenes and two talking heads equally well. There are a lot more top-end stunt performers than there are top-end Directors of Photography.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Thanks!
Would Armed Grappling (Two-Handed Sword) be appropriate? Pommel strikes simply use Brawling or Hammerfist. Two-Handed Pommel Strikes may require us to invent a rule (or just use Two-Handed Punch with a damage bonus). Sounds like Disarming (Judo) is also called for. I think Feint (Two-Handed Sword) is probably called for as well. Maybe Bind (Two-Handed Sword) if you include the appropriate perk (below).

Sure, Armed Grapple (any weapon skill in the style) would be appropriate.

There are a few feints in the manuals, such as the Punta Falsa, but Fiore does not seem to emphasize them (although of course that is always a judgement call, and telling real and feinted attacks apart requires Prudentia and Celeritas). So I would be comfortable saying that a student of Armizare should probably spend their points on another technique. (Similarly, there are a few basic kicks in the manuals, but not a wide variety, so I am comfortable assuming that a stylist is working from Brawling-2).

I can't think of anything like what GURPS calls Bind Weapon in Fiore's manuals, although Targeted Attack (Judo Grapple/Weapon, Judo Grapple/Arm) might be appropriate. Disarm and Bind Weapons are two techniques whose GURPS name is a bit narrower than their ordinary meaning (Disarm is for knocking weapons away with a sudden blow, although it is often assigned to styles which teach how to lever them it way with continuous pressure).

Originally Posted by aesir23

The Perks given for Longsword Fighting in MA goes as follows: Armor Familiarity (Judo), Grip Mastery (Longsword), Skill Adaptation (Bind Weapon Defaults to Two-Handed Sword), and Sure-Footed (Uneven)

Most of those seem appropriate to Fiore's style. What do you think?

Grip Mastery (Two-Handed Sword) sounds fine, Sure Footed (Uneven) would be a bit speculative (it would show Fortitudo and Fiore says that he took his students somewhere secluded to train ...)

[aesir23]

Okay, based on our conversation thus far, I present this complete version of your style.

Armizare [5 points] By Polydamas with revisions by Aesir23.

Armizare Is the influential style of armed combat as taught by Fiore Furlano del Liberi (Fiore). Armizare had a strong influence on later styles, especially those focusing on the longsword (such as Early German Fencing).
Fiore taught a holistic system for life-and-death combat with knightly weapons at the end of the fourteenth century. His manuals stand out for their clear design, humorous text, and firm vision of how to approach a fight. Fiore prefers to take direct action to remove the opponent's most dangerous weapon (whether beating an attack aside, locking an arm, or grappling a weapon) then take them out of the fight with a lock, throw, break, or strike. He insists on teaching ways of moving which work with or without armour, unarmed or with a variety of weapons. Almost all that is known of his life and teaching comes from a series of illustrated manuscripts which he composed between roughly 1404 and 1410.

Fiore's manuscripts became popular with the growing western martial arts movement around the year 2000. Most modern revivalists focus on some parts of his art. The techniques with dagger and longsword on foot are the most commonly studied, followed by bare hands, armoured combat on foot, improvised weapons, and combat on horseback. In 2015, about a thousand people train according to his manuals in the United States, Canada, Great Britain, and northern Italy, a few dozen of them owning armour or riding horses.

Skills: Brawling, Judo, and any two of Knife, Broadsword, Two-Handed Sword, Spear, or Polearm.

Techniques: Armed Grapple (Any Weapon Skill), Arm Lock (Judo), Close Combat (Two-Handed Sword), Counterattack (Any Weapon Skill), Disarm (Judo), Targeted Attack (Judo Grapple/Arm), Targeted Attack (Judo Grapple/Weapon), Two Handed Punch (Brawling)*.

Cinematic Skills: Sensitivity

Cinematic Techniques: Dual Weapon Defense, Timed Defense

Perks: Armor Familiarity (Judo), Grip Mastery (Two-Handed Sword), Style Adaptation (Combat Wrestling or Late Knightly Mounted Combat)

Optional Traits
Advantages: Combat Reflexes, Eidetic Memory (Memory Palace -?%), Enhanced Parry, Fit, Italian, Latin, Very Fit, Weapon Master.
Skills:Artist (Drawing, Lance, Public Speaking, Philosophy (Neo-Aristotelian), Riding (Horse), Writing.


*Two Handed Punch is used for the pommel strike with both hands on a longsword, as described on MA pg 111.

[aesir23]

The Art and Use of Fencing 4

This manual, written by Ridolfo Capo Ferro (of Sienna) and published in 1610, making it a style contemporary to those of Giganti and Fabris--of the two, Capo Ferro's style has more in common with Giganti. It is unclear how influential this manual was in it's own time (unlike Fabris, for example, Capo Ferro is never mentioned in the works of his contempories), but it has been very widely adopted by modern HEMA practitioners.

Capo Ferro's manual focuses primarily on sword and dagger and sword alone, but it also includes a few plays for the cloak and the rotello (a medium shield). What distinguishes Capo Ferro from other manuals is his distinction between "Art" and "Use" where "art" refers to a pure or platonic view of fencing--idealized and reduced into it's perfect form. "Use" on the other hand includes the actual practice of sword-play in the messy and imperfect world.

This has lead to a lot of misunderstandings where Capo Ferro contradicts himself--he claims in the section on Art that fencers should never feint or cut, but then includes techniques for just those things in the section on use.

Additionally, Capo Ferro advocates the use of a longer than usual Rapier (one that reaches from the ground to the arm-pit) such a sword would indeed be clumsier on the cut than shorter rapiers.*

Capo Ferro advocates good defense through good offense. Practitioners make good use of retreating to control distance and will probably use defensive and deceptive attacks extensively.

Skills: Main-Gauche, Rapier, Rapier Art
Techniques: Counterattack (Rapier), Targeted Attack (Rapier Thrust/Vitals).
Cinematic Skills: (Suggestions???)
Cinematic Techniques: Dual Weapon Defense, Flying Lunge
Perks: Special Exercises (Resistance (Feints)), One Trick Wonder (Wrestling for Grapples to Sword Hand).

Optional Traits:
Advantages: Enhanced Parry (Rapier or Main-Gauche), Weapon Master (Rapier)
Skills: Cloak, Fast Draw (Sword), Shield (Shield), Wrestling.



*Treat as Edged Rapier, increase Weight to 4, and Cut Damage to Swing +1. Min St becomes 11 and Sword becomes Unready after a Swing. Reach remains the same, but treat as Very Long if using 'A Matter of Inches'.

[aesir23]

Just an attempt based on the way my own school does things. I'd be happy for any feedback.

Early German Fencing 3

This style (along with Harnisfechten) represents the "Liechtenauer Tradition." Johannes Liechtenaur may have been the most influential longsword master in history--at least in the records we have available to us. Little is known about his life, except that he lived in the 14th century and allegedly traveled widely to master the sword. He may have been a contemporary of Fiore, or even his teacher (although their styles vary significantly). He didn't write any manuals, instead he left behind a single memetic poem, the Merkverse or Zettle. Fortunately many German swordmasters of the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries wrote glosses and explanations of this poem which kept this style alive for 2 centuries.

Compared to Fiore's Armizare, Early German Fencing uses fewer low-guards and thrusts--but more of both than Late German Fencing. The heart of the Liechtenaur Tradition is the 5 strikes--different cutting attacks all of which can be launched as a Counter-Attacks or Ripostes. (Joachim Meyer's Late German style uses the same names for his 5 master strikes, but the techniques are completely different.) This style also emphasizes the importance of fuhlen ("feeling")--that is feeling through the blade when swords are in contact--in campaigns where it is allowed, or with the appropriate perk, GMs could consider allowing Sensitivity as a Primary Skill.

While the Liechtenaur tradition focused on Blossfectin Longsword techniques, some of the manuals also included Wrestling (actually Judo), Sword and Buckler, Messer (shortsword), dagger, poleaxe, mace and shield, spear, quarterstaff, and even mounted combat. In most cases, the Longsword techniques stand as the foundation for other weapons. Additionally, practitioners of this style during the 14th and 15th centuries are likely to have studied Harnischfechten (above) as well.

Skills: Two-Handed Sword, Judo
Techniques: Close Combat (Two-Handed Sword), Counterattack (Two-Handed Sword), Sweep (Judo), Targeted Attack (Two-Handed Sword Swing/Face), Target Attack (Two-Handed Sword Swing/Arm)
Cinematic Skills: Power-Blow, Sensitivity
Cinematic Techniques: Timed Defense
Perks: Unusual Training (Sensitivity, only in circumstances where Beat would be allowed), Technique Adaptation (Counterattack), Style Adaptation (Harnischfechten)

Optional Traits:
Advantages: Enhanced Parry, German, Weapon Master
Skills: Axe/Mace, Brawling, Broadsword, Knife, Polearm, Riding, Shield (Any), Shortsword, Spear, Staff
Techniques:Combat Riding, Mounted Combat