Differences between GURPS 3 & 4 cybernetics

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by hal

For instance, a cybernetic heart - how does one provide maintenance on it one week after it is installed? Even a maintenance interval of 1 month, would necessitate invasive surgery 12 times a year if that heart has to be taken out or gotten access to in order to do maintenance.

The "if" is key.

I could see "maintenance" for a heart consisting entirely of diagnostics, tuning and calibration, and software/security updates. No surgery required.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by hal

Night Vision 6 levels (6 points - don't know how to adjust for color blind for this advantage, thoughts?)

That sounds like a perfect example of the Temporary Disadvantage limitation.

Can be stolen: -5% (requires force to remove a person's eyes, and will not work immediately for the thief).

That sounds bogus to me. How do you "steal" someone's cybernetic eyes, and how is the process significantly different from de-oculating someone with the original organic kind? If there's no difference, it's not a disadvantage / limitation.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Proteus

That sounds bogus to me. How do you "steal" someone's cybernetic eyes, and how is the process significantly different from de-oculating someone with the original organic kind? If there's no difference, it's not a disadvantage / limitation.

When any kind of advantage is set up such that it is a gadget, loss of said gadget results in a loss of the advantage itself. If the gadget can be easily stolen, then it becomes a contest of dex or perhaps st or something along those lines. Think "Magic Wand" that contains 1 level of Magery for example.

But a cybernetic eye with multiple levels of Telescopic view for instance, is such that if the eyes are removed by the NPC - and being stolen for purposes of resale or use by the NPC themselves, then it can be removed by smashing the bones surrounding the eye, and ripping the item out (probably damaging the nerve connection etc. Same thing with a cybernetic limb. One could RIP it off despite the fact it is securely attached to the torso. It won't be easy, and might even result in an amputation of the flesh where the arm was anchored - but it is STILL an object that can be stolen by forcible removal.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by hal

It won't be easy, and might even result in an amputation of the flesh where the arm was anchored - but it is STILL an object that can be stolen by forcible removal.

But this is a distinction without a difference.

Someone can also "steal" your organic eyes or limbs by violently ripping them from your body. And, unsurprisingly enough, the PC loses any vision- or limb-related advantages in the process.

What you're describing isn't a meaningful disadvantage, so it's folly to suggest that it deserves a point-cost discount.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Proteus

The "if" is key.

I could see "maintenance" for a heart consisting entirely of diagnostics, tuning and calibration, and software/security updates. No surgery required.

I imagine wearing an induction harness recharging the heart. It needs to get its energy somehow. I see no reason for security updates. It's not like I'm going to download a song and have my heart beat out the rhythm.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Proteus

But this is a distinction without a difference.

Someone can also "steal" your organic eyes or limbs by violently ripping them from your body. And, unsurprisingly enough, the PC loses any vision- or limb-related advantages in the process.

What you're describing isn't a meaningful disadvantage, so it's folly to suggest that it deserves a point-cost discount.

Most cybernetics need to be removed for maintenance, so eyes wouldn't be bolted to the skull and will safely come out at times. But I admit it is a stretch.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Proteus

But this is a distinction without a difference.

Someone can also "steal" your organic eyes or limbs by violently ripping them from your body. And, unsurprisingly enough, the PC loses any vision- or limb-related advantages in the process.

What you're describing isn't a meaningful disadvantage, so it's folly to suggest that it deserves a point-cost discount.

This then, will have to be a point where we have to agree to disagree.

When a player buys an advantage that is not normal to their biological body - its cost is based upon the pricing scheme given in GURPS BASIC CHARACTERS for better or for worse. Having someone rip out your "advantage" when your character is 21 years of age, and then replacing the "organ" with a lesser version that more closely mimics the natural abilities of an organ, and then later on having to pay money to upgrade to the original "advantage" that was once held is not the same process of buying that advantage once and always having it available no matter what.

Even something as simple as having insurance of some kind to repay the victim of such a theft, is not the same as buying the advantage once and then always having it (the insurance pays to have the stolen advantage restored) on the grounds that the insurance is a constant ongoing maintenance cost to KEEP the advantage rather than a one time cost in points gaining the advantage. Short of Plot immunity, the potential loss of an advantage in a cyberpunkesque campaign would indicate that the advantage purchased as a cybernetic item - is not on par with a straight cost.

So - feel free to adjust the cost for your campaign. Just as I don't like the option of having to take "blindness: mitigator" for cybernetic eyes, you don't have to like taking "Gadget: can be stolen". In the end, it simply increases the point cost of any given cybernetic device for your campaign world.

For my campaign world - point costs for cybernetic devices and cash cost for cybernetic devices serve two functions:

Pregame generation of character uses point costs for the purchase of cybernetic devices. It represents (to me) the fact that at some time in the character's past, they underwent the surgery to install the device, paid the cash cost of the device, and paid the cost of surgery to have it installed. They survived the operation, and are in the clear for use of said cybernetic device in game.

Post game acquisition of cybernetic devices on the other hand, requires that the character spend down time recovering from the operation, requires that they survive the surgery, pay the cost of not only the device, but the cost to have it surgically installed, etc. It grants the benefits but also results in die rolls that can damage the character. One character went insane after having a crit failure installing chip slots once the campaign started. That was akin to having a character in any genre get into combat and lose their character to combat. <shrug>

So, for me, GURPS as a toolkit fills one functionality that others might never desire it serve. This is why I have no issues with "Agreeing to disagree". The ONLY time I care about RULES AS WRITTEN (holy grail that it tends to be that is largely unattainable as it seems to be at times) is when I'm concerned about meeting the standards of the game for other people. If I'm going to try and create a data file for public distribution, I SHOULD make an effort to adhere to specific standards as best as possible.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Most cybernetics need to be removed for maintenance, so eyes wouldn't be bolted to the skull and will safely come out at times. But I admit it is a stretch.

Even if it wasn't easily removed via "maintenance procedures" - the fact that mugging involves inflicting or the threat of inflicting bodily harm just to steal the contents of a wallet, is justification enough to have to worry about the theft of cybernetic limbs.

Think about it: if a cyber arm goes for $12,000 on the open market, pointing a gun at your character and then RIPPING that arm off, means that the person who mugged you just (likely) made a cool $1,200 score (assuming he only makes 10% of its market value after markdown for the item being used, stolen etc.

In GURPS terms, that's what, one week's income for a thief character who makes around $4,000 per month income?

Mind you, this is for stuff that isn't easily removed! A mugger who uses a taser to nail your character's buttocks, takes you to an illegal black market chop shop - and leaves your character alive afterwards (to avoid the messy murder raps involved) is going to have a shot at making some money off your character.

Mind you, as GM, I'm not LIKELY to use that concept in EVERY campaign in EVERY game run, but just the hint of it being possible is going to make some players skittish about cybernetic modifications for their characters. One of my players makes EVERY effort these days to avoid Chip Slot use because he's paranoid about being brain hacked. He also avoids cybernetic implants other than Direct Neural Interfaces because he doesn't want to lose functionality or gain a dependency on his cybernetics.

Which brings me to the final point:

GURPS 4e changed a lot of pricing elements for various "advantages" and "disadvantages". In a way, there is an economic aspect to the various advantages/disadvantages in game play because some advantages are priced higher than the players are willing to spend points for. As a consequence, there is a sort of law of supply and demand effect to what was purchased in Classic GURPS as compared against what is now purchased in GURPS 4e.

In the end? I find myself disliking the rules and point costs involved for psionic based campaigns in GURPS 4e as compared/contrasted against Classic GURPS. Likewise, the costs for certain cybernetics REALLY bothers me. Point inflation being what it is now requires that characters be built on 250 points or more to be able to afford certain genre conventions for their characters - and those who do not buy into the genre based advantages (that are highly expensive) can do some really NASTY stuff buying non-genre conventional characters (40 points to buy a super ability when not purchased, can also graint multi-levels of wealth and high skill levels with social skills etc)

Ah well. The game is what you and your friends/players make of it. ;)

[Flyndaran]

That sounds rather close to the old urban legend of taking home a one stand only to wake up in a bathtub of ice and with a crudely stitched wound on your side.
OMG, they stole your kidney for the organ transplant black market!

It's a bit silly, and while for cybernetics theoretically someone could make actual money off it, it still requires almost certain murder to get it.
With that understanding, it just falls down to armed robbers willing to kill to take your high end watch or jewelry.
Cybernetic prosethetics don't have to be in a dystopian crap-sack world where every third person is psychopathic murderer for near chump change. That's Shadowrun. ;)

Heck it would be worth a lot more if the items were removed careful and surgically. So why not shoot them in the face and cut just above the machinery? I mean, once you decide to kill someone for stuff, you might as well get your effort's worth.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by hal

...

Which brings me to the final point:

GURPS 4e changed a lot of pricing elements for various "advantages" and "disadvantages". In a way, there is an economic aspect to the various advantages/disadvantages in game play because some advantages are priced higher than the players are willing to spend points for. As a consequence, there is a sort of law of supply and demand effect to what was purchased in Classic GURPS as compared against what is now purchased in GURPS 4e.

In the end? I find myself disliking the rules and point costs involved for psionic based campaigns in GURPS 4e as compared/contrasted against Classic GURPS. Likewise, the costs for certain cybernetics REALLY bothers me. Point inflation being what it is now requires that characters be built on 250 points or more to be able to afford certain genre conventions for their characters - and those who do not buy into the genre based advantages (that are highly expensive) can do some really NASTY stuff buying non-genre conventional characters (40 points to buy a super ability when not purchased, can also graint multi-levels of wealth and high skill levels with social skills etc)

Ah well. The game is what you and your friends/players make of it. ;)

3rd edition psi was grossly broken for anything but low powered 100 point campaigns. Magic is still a bit that way with how it scales poorly unless VERY carefully ridden and reigned in by the GM.
Genre conventions are NOT supposed to be statted out if everyone has them. That's why we have the Action! DF and other lines. To help make those features aspects of the game world itself.
I agree that if no one ever takes a (dis)advantage it's probably priced wrong. But to prove that it takes far more than a single gaming group's opinion. There are some I would never take due to personal distaste or playing style reasons regardless of price. There are some I have to stop myself from taking because they fit my personality too much so almost seem like free points or necessary for "sane" characters.
I took a couple years getting over my shock when 4th came out having played 3rd for mumble-mumble years. So I understand the discomfort at all the changes. But I think much of it really is better, far more streamlined, and cohesive overall.