Virtual Table Top (VTT) support

[sjard]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Good question. Here's my list.

Absolute Must Haves
* Stability. Having the VTT crash during a game session must be an extremely rare event, not more than once per hundreds of hours of play.

I've never had FG crash on me, and I've used it for close to 600 hours, about half of that play sessions.

* Performance. There should never be more than a 1 second delay between initiating an action (rolling dice, moving a token, whatever) and getting a response.

The only delays I've noticed that are of any significance (1-2 seconds) are with the current GURPS community ruleset while unmasking the map. There can be slowdowns when new players are first connecting as they download anything you have shared from you.

* Chat interface. The chat interface needs display who is currently talking and make it easy for the GM to differentiate between NPCs, the GM as the rules guy, the GM as the game judge, and the GM as a person make out of character comments. Everyone needs to be able to easily put text in bold and italics. It must be easy to scroll back through the chat log and save it to an external file.

I've never tried the bold/italics so I can't say, but FG does all of that. The one thing that is an annoyance to me is that as the GM you cannot easily change your chat icon to the speaking NPC. But it does have a name display when you are speaking as that NPC.

* Die roller. There must be a configurable die roller with a quick to learn syntax that can roll just about number or size of dice, add or subtract modifiers, and compare that against a target number.

This is mostly built in, though it will vary slightly between rulesets. It won't do multiplication or division from direct chat imput at current, but will if you enter it into a rollable table (no clue why).

* Map interface: It must be quick and easy, using the computer's native file interface or something similar, to grab an image file and use it as a map background. There must be support for hex grids of arbitrary and adjustable size. The map has to have multiple layers, including one that is visible only to the GM.

FG has most of this. Hex grid support is a bit wonky as the larger the map, and the further away from where you drew the grid, it can stop recognizing where the grid is. Layers are currently available via an extension. However, depending on what you want it for, it may actually be there just not as a toggleable layer.

Locations for example can be dropped as pins on the map that only the GM can see, hovering over will display the text for it, clicking it will open it in a popup. NPC tokens can be hidden from the player view, and will show as faded for the GM view when hidden.

* Token interface: It must be quick and easy, using the computer's native file interface or something similar, to grab an image file and use it as a token. Tokens need to have facing indicators and need to be rotatable and resizable. It must be easy to change the image for an existing token. There must be a way to indicate common states (stunned, unconscious, whatever) on each token.

Again most of this is available in FG, to varying extents for each aspect. Create a token as a jpg/png/whatever, drop it into the token folder (which can be opened in the program). Facing indicators vary by ruleset, and some people prefer top down tokens for this reason. Rotation and size are easy to do, mousewheel to rotate, control mousewheel to resize. You can toggle status icons on tokens in the options.

* Draw interface: There need to be tools for drawing on the map with a reasonable sensible toolset (free hand, straight lines, boxes, ovals). It must be possible to draw separate lines on each layer of the map, and erase them separately.

Drawing interface could be better. You can draw straight lines, and free hand, and erase. I don't use the layers extension so I don't know how that works.

* Vision and Fog of War: There must be an easy interface that controls the field of vision for each token, as well as options to turn off vision or to share vision. There must be a way to indicate that certain parts of the map block vision. There should be an option to implement fog of war, where parts of the map that tokens have seen but can no longer seen are grayed out without entirely disappearing from sight.

FG has fog of war, but it has to be manually applied and removed by the GM. The only VTT that I am aware of that has what you are listing, at current, is Roll20, but you must subscribe to have access to it.

* Macro language: There should be a macro language that can automate common tasks. It must be a simple imperative language with a straightforward syntax, not a functional language based on Scheme. It must be possible to share macros between different users.

I am not entirely sure what is being asked here, so I can't comment.

* Setup and Complexity. It must be possible for a GM to draw some lines on a blank map, put down some tokens, and start playing. More advanced frameworks that automate stuff are wonderful but the GM should not have to engage with the framework in order to run the game.

For the most part, this is how FG works, at base, with the CoreRPG ruleset (the base most of the other rulesets are built on). If all you want is a map, tokens, and dice, that's pretty much the basic level. Everything else is quality of life stuff.

* Communication between VTT instances should be based on http or some other open protocol.

Again, not fully familiar with all of that stuff, but I think only Roll20 is based on website stuff.

* Easy login: It should be easy for a new player to connect to an existing game. It must also be easy to make a game private.

New players connecting is pretty simple, as is making the game private. Just give the player your alias, which is a randomly generated four word "address". An example, using no words I've seen in the list so I don't give out someone's alias by accident (and you don't choose your own) would be something like "boat lock card fans"

* Multiplatform support: The VTT must run on Windows, Macs, Linux, and tablets.

FG technically works on windows, mac, and linux, but not tablet. If they ever actually release the Unity version, it's supposed to work on all the above. They just hired a new Unity developer so there's hope it will be sooner rather than later.

* Total cost of ownership: 7 players, 2 of whom rotate as GMs, must be able to use the VTT with a total outlay of less than $140 (this is about the same cost as GCA4). If the TCO is higher, the VTT better be spectacular.

Total per person, or total per group? FG standard license is $40 (frequently on sale), and ultimate license (meaning only the GM needs to buy it) is $150 (regularly on sale down to about $120ish). If you don't mind renting, the ultimate can be subscribed to for $9ish/month, which is the same as the same general amount of features for Roll20. Standard sub is $4 or $5/month.

What do you mean by rotate as GMs, the same campaign or different ones?

Nice to have
* Support for multiple layers on the same map, including the ability to have tokens on different z-levels and have the map do something sensible.

Multiple layers is available on Roll20 with a subscription (I believe), and FG with a community extension. No clue about Z Levels.

* Full 3-D tokens and map support as an option.

I don't think anyone supports this yet. Smiteworks (Fantasy Grounds owners) did buy Tabletop Connect for the 3D dungeon technology they created, supposed to be coming natively with the Unity version.

* Support for multiple different types of visions, including the ability to block different types of visions and indicate that only certain tokens can see a token that is nominally in view.

I believe of the major two, only Roll20 has this, and it requires a subscription, and from what I've seen is not entirely reliable.

* A better macro language should be extendable with Python or some other common scripting language, and use Python or other common scripting language syntax.
* It should be possible to specify an editor or IDE for the scripting language.

Again, not sure what is being asked here. But FG uses XML for the under the hood stuff, and could probably have an extension made that works that way, don't really know.

* Support for sounds, including the GM's ability to mute people playing sounds.

I think Roll20 has this somewhat natively, but may require a subscription to use. FG adds it in with a community extension, but I don't know how well it works, because for me, sounds are a major distraction and really hinder play and so are verboten at my table.

* 3-d dice rolling. I don't care; some people love this.

I think all the major players have this at this point.

I'm glad that TTS works for Mark Skarr, but my artistic ability is limited to gross manipulation of 2-D images in GIMP. I don't need or want a VTT that requires everything I do be in 3-D.

Anyway. That's the things I want and value in a VTT. MapTools hits most of the must haves (the connection protocol and ease of log-on needs work). FG2, last I checked, is too expensive with out adding value on the things I value.

I was given a little map making program by one of my players that seems to work okay, even if it's not exactly to my tastes, but I no longer have easy access to a scanner to do my usual hand drawn stuff.

[Mark Skarr]

The only Stability issues we’ve had with TTS have been network based. One of our players is high-ping and this has caused some problems for her, including package loss that caused her to desynch. Another of our players Laptop seems to have a buggy network connection, with similar results. This also applies to performance. For those of us with <50 ping, we have 0 latency. We pick something up, it’s picked up. We roll some dice, they roll. For the other two players, that’s hardware issues, not software. And, if they tell the dice to roll, we can usually see the results before they can. But, again, that’s their networking issues.

Chat interface, we use Skype and I recognize everyone’s voice. The built-in voice chat (we don’t use it due to issues that the aforementioned players with hardware issues exacerbate yet Skype does not) does highlight the person talking both in the virtual space and on the player list.

The die roller is very easy. Select the dice you want to roll and roll them. Oh, and dice towers are an option as well.

Map interface. Do you want it to load onto the table or onto a “card” or “board” you can lay down? Your choice. Do you want vertical or horizontal hexes? Do you want things to snap to the center of the hex, the line of a hex, or the vertices? You can move the hexes and change their sizes. It also does grids, but, we don’t care about grids. . .. ;-P

Token interface . . . if you want tokens, it’s got tokens. It’s also got miniatures. Some of the included minis are animated and have built-in states. It’s easy enough to import your own as flats, or import them as stickers and apply them to chess pieces. Or, hey, it can also do cardboard heroes with a front and a back. Almost everything you want is in the “custom” section of the tools menu. You can also import fully 3d figures (advanced feature). It also moves everything to the Steam Cloud (you get about 100gb of storage) so your players download it through the game (steam networking) instead of it coming from your computer to all of them. (You to Steam Cloud, Steam Cloud to them.) Each one also has the ability to have a name and additional text added to it. I usually test 3d models by loading them locally, determining they work, then uploading them, which is also an option.

Draw interface: Vector and “freehand.”

Vision and Fog of War. This it really doesn’t do, natively. And, really, I’ve tried it once (in Battlegrounds) and didn’t like it. My players can firewall well enough. I’ve got a few ways of faking it, but, haven’t really bothered.

Macro Language: It has one of those—Lua I think. I don’t know anything about it because I don’t use scripting.

Setup and Complexity: My man. I’m with you on that. It needs to be stupid simple and it is.

Communication, uses Steam Networking. But, it’s not browser or web-based, so it’s not HTML (that I know of and I could be wrong).

Login is easy, private is easy. You can restrict it to friends only and require a password.

According to Steam, TTS supports Win, Max, Linux, HTC and Oculus, but not tablets. Unless you’re talking Windows tablets, then it “can,” but I don’t suggest it. When one of our players didn’t have a computer, I just had Hand of Bobb share his screen through Skype so he could see on his Android tablet.

Cost of ownership for 7 players would be $120-$140 if you don’t buy it on sale (@ $20 per person, or $60 for a four-pack). $60 if you get it on sale, and one (or two) people buy a 4-pack. Two four-packs ($30/4) would leave an additional copy to let a new player join.

While it is in 3d, it does not require maps to be in 3d. You can load a 2D map onto a table or board and put it down. You can scale the board (not the table) in real-time to adjust the map to the size of hexes you want to use (can also adjust the size of hexes, if you want to go that way).

@trooper6

No more work than doing it in the real world. I found the TTS interface easier for me and my players than Battlegrounds. I could drop a blank board, scale it up to the size I wanted, lock it, then use the drawing tool to draw walls, doors, etc and move the figures on to it and go.

If I want to spend the time, I can make it fully 3d, but, in general, 2d maps work just as well. Hand of Bobb had us doing a fight on a container ship for our Teen Supers game, and actually found a 3d container ship in the workshop. It was awesome because it was a fully 3d container ship that we could have the battle on. It was cool, but it wasn’t necessary.

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

…then blow ~$20 on GURPS plugins for it.

That's not a thing right now, and I don't see it becoming one, unless they start publishing adventure material down the road.

[gruundehn]

Storium is not a VTT "like Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds".

I am not familiar with VTT platforms, so please explain to me, anyone, what the strengths and weaknesses are of each. I am asking nicely.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by sjard

I've never had FG crash on me, and I've used it for close to 600 hours, about half of that play sessions.

I don't expect any serious VTT to not be stable, but stability is a must have. When I first started my online group in 2007, we briefly tried using OpenRPG and it was not stable and we ditched it.

Originally Posted by sjard

FG has most of this. Hex grid support is a bit wonky as the larger the map, and the further away from where you drew the grid, it can stop recognizing where the grid is.

Seriously? That's lame. I routinely create 1000x1000 hex maps in MapTools for high-tech or fast moving battles. It's generally overkill but MapTools supports it.

Originally Posted by sjard

Drawing interface could be better. You can draw straight lines, and free hand, and erase. I don't use the layers extension so I don't know how that works.

In MapTools, I can draw something on the background layer, and then draw over it in the objects layer, and over that in the GM only hidden layer, and then over it again in the token layer. Which I do when I'm creating a quick map: draw the map features on background, add some stuff that I expect to change on the background later, and put spell effects on the token layer.

Originally Posted by sjard

FG has fog of war, but it has to be manually applied and removed by the GM. The only VTT that I am aware of that has what you are listing

MapTools has it. I think Battlegrounds has it but it's been a long while since I updated my copy.

Originally Posted by sjard

Total per person, or total per group? FG standard license is $40 (frequently on sale), and ultimate license (meaning only the GM needs to buy it) is $150 (regularly on sale down to about $120ish). If you don't mind renting, the ultimate can be subscribed to for $9ish/month, which is the same as the same general amount of features for Roll20. Standard sub is $4 or $5/month.

What do you mean by rotate as GMs, the same campaign or different ones?

Total cost is the total cost for the group, including possibility that two or more different GMs will be running the game. My online group, at various times, has had Bruno, Crakkerjakk, Harald387, and me as the GM for various different campaigns and experiments. If FG's proposition is that each of us has to pay $110, that's too expensive unless there's a lot of extra value there.

Originally Posted by sjard

I don't think anyone supports [3-D maps] yet.

Tabletop Simulator does.

Originally Posted by sjard

I believe of the major two

I would argue there are at least three major options: FG, Roll20, and MapTools.

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

If FG's proposition is that each of us has to pay $110, that's too expensive unless there's a lot of extra value there.

Only one. That's the point of the Ultimate license.

[DAT]

Originally Posted by gruundehn

I am not familiar with VTT platforms, so please explain to me, anyone, what the strengths and weaknesses are of each. I am asking nicely.

I don't think any one person can do this. Most people try one to three, and just settle on one that works for them.

From a quick search I found the following list of VTTs, and added a few notes:
3D Virtual Tabletop –
BattleBox –
Battlegrounds –
d20 Pro – non-GURPS
D&D Virtual Table – non-GURPS
EpicTable –
Fantasy Grounds – Has Active GURPS Groups
Gametable –
Infrno –
JParanoia – non-GURPS
KLoOge.Werks –
iTabletop –
Map Tools – Has an Active GURPS Group
OpenRPG –
Rolisteam –
Roll20 – Has Active GURPS Groups
RPGtonight –
SceneGrinder – which may not be active anymore
ScreenMonkey –
Tabletop Forge – which merged with Roll20
Traipse –
TTopRPG – which may not be active anymore


Storium – looks like more of a creative writing interface, but shares some VTT features


My group currently uses Roll20 with Discord for the voice channel. The advantage is we are using the free version. The disadvantages are that we will normally have 1 to 3 dropped connections in a 5 hours session and have various glitches during play, such as screens freezing, die rolls not totaling, etc. (with 9 of us).

A few of us would like to try Fantasy Grounds, but the cost point is too high for ~2/3 of the group.

My limited and dated (more than 3 years ago) experience with Map Tools was that it required a programmer to get it installed and working. The current version might be much more user friendly.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

Only one. That's the point of the Ultimate license.

Can someone other than the GM host the game? Even if they can, each GM needs at least a standard license (as far as I can tell), so that's $139 for a group with 2 GMs.

[Bruno]

MapTools has quite a few active GURPS groups playing on it. More often than not, when I go to set up a server or join one, there's at least one other GURPS server, sometimes two or even three. given that we play on Thursday evenings (EST), that's just a slice of the timeslots one part of the world plays in.

[JMason]

I've used many VTT over the past 10 years or so, and they all have pros and cons. I settled on Roll20 (after Tabletop Forge was merged into it), and was really hopeful for Tabletop Connect (which is now defunct but the developer is now working on Fantasy Grounds).

Roll20 has a few (IMO) huge advantages: (1) It's online, so there isn't any need to ask players to download any software. Just login and play. (2) It's free ... and even if you choose to pay for the Pro features, only the GM has to pay. (3) While it doesn't have "official" support, I was able to update the character sheet, enhancing it, using only HTML and javascript.

I pretty much only play online and have introduced many new players to GURPS, or even to RPGs in general by inviting them to my games. Saying, "Hey would you like to try out playing an RPG? Okay, I need you to drop $xx.xx first.", is kinda a deal breaker. And "..okay, you need to download xxxxx", can be a pain especially if that software doesn't run natively on all OSes.

There are features that other VTTs have that I really like, but so far nothing beats the ability to create a game, send a link, and have a new players going with minimal hassle.