Cost to cast spells as a service

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Then magic started to come back. Most of its practitioners were ostracized, sometimes at the witch-burning level, thanks to superstition, tales of bogeymen, and the urgings of priesthoods who had everything to lose. Practitioners who were exceptionally magically talented and/or already socially influential weren't shy to exploit their gifts in various ways in order to avoid such fates. Most of these felt that security resided in grabbing power; some went very far, creating zombie armies to conquer, setting themselves up as living gods to demand worship, or just perverting social systems from within to claim imperium.

Into this stepped the PCs. The entire campaign goal was to play out the transition from "magic doesn't exist," through "magic is sinister and can't be trusted," to "an age of magical enlightenment." This involved very little use of their magical powers and a great deal of assassination of troublesome magic-wielders, conventional warfare, and exerting social influence on rulers. It was quite the epic campaign.

Have you ever encountered Graydon Saunders's Commonweal novels? They aren't exactly this, but they have something somewhat related: a world that has been ruled by sorcerous dark lords as long as anyone can remember, where one society has come up with new rules AND new magical techniques for enforcing them. They're one of the most interesting fantasy settings I've seen since the turn of the century.

[Micah Davis]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

If mages are rare and the cost is high,

But if mages are rare and the costs are high, then obviously you're in a different situation than if you can find a mage to cast whatever spell you're looking for at $5 per FP outside of Dungeon Fantasy, which does a decent job of changing the spells to prevent massive transformation with a pocket full of spells - Although disease is still probably effectively a thing of the past. Essential Metal, for example, would produce seven tons for $70, close to 5% of our present cost of iron. Plant Growth and Blossom similarly reduce food prices dramatically.

[Emerikol]

Originally Posted by Micah Davis

But if mages are rare and the costs are high, then obviously you're in a different situation than if you can find a mage to cast whatever spell you're looking for at $5 per FP outside of Dungeon Fantasy, which does a decent job of changing the spells to prevent massive transformation with a pocket full of spells - Although disease is still probably effectively a thing of the past. Essential Metal, for example, would produce seven tons for $70, close to 5% of our present cost of iron. Plant Growth and Blossom similarly reduce food prices dramatically.

In a world where magic is scarce is may still have a price. It’s just a high enough price that most people don’t or can’t pay it. It’s opportunity costs. If a city of a million has 500 mages then those mages will be very busy doing what makes the most money and not what doesn’t. If they are even trying to make money as a business.

[Micah Davis]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

In a world where magic is scarce is may still have a price. It’s just a high enough price that most people don’t or can’t pay it. It’s opportunity costs. If a city of a million has 500 mages then those mages will be very busy doing what makes the most money and not what doesn’t. If they are even trying to make money as a business.

Yeah, if there's a demand crunch, magic is really expensive and doesn't necessarily even go to the most economically efficient places. Whether Essential Metal is available is as much a function of if anyone has run into it - It's possible that most mages well suited to it never even delved into the Earth College, let alone picked up. And, as you said, there's no guarantee that they're even trying to make money - A contemplative might cast Cure Disease or Divination spells for free, an archmage with 80+ spells at -20 might not sell spells at all.

But in a world where it's easy to hire someone who (in favorable circumstances) can cast at -15 as an upper-middle class gig worker and the standard GURPS Magic rules are in effect, the economic tide flows toward really radical social transformation. Unless you implement a pretty aggressively conservative social order, as Kromm noted.

[Emerikol]

Originally Posted by Micah Davis

But in a world where it's easy to hire someone who (in favorable circumstances) can cast at -15 as an upper-middle class gig worker and the standard GURPS Magic rules are in effect, the economic tide flows toward really radical social transformation. Unless you implement a pretty aggressively conservative social order, as Kromm noted.

Yes if you make a setting where magic is easy and plentiful then you have to handle the cultural consequences.

I was just pointing out one of many ways to maintain a somewhat medieval setting by controlling various variables. Kromm chimed in with his own way of controlling those variables. If you don’t want magic mart or a magi-tech society it’s not that hard to prevent.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by Micah Davis

I'll admit a world with magic abundant enough to hire a mage for whatever you're looking for, it's probably going to be functionally TL 3^ with widespread healing magic, abundant food, truth assaying magic, and very fast ships. But such a society would be productive enough to handle the influx of wealth from adventuring and have enough magic to genuinely unlimited amounts of magical disasters and fallen civilizations while not solving the standard problems of a fantasy setting and thus subject to sensible economic analyses.

It would, to be fair, be a very different economy from the one we have.

Yeah, my world is feudal-becoming-Renaissance due to cultures having finally accepted magic as a useful tool and finally organizing enough to use magic on an industrial scale.

And yeah, the economy is different from historical ones.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

Yes if you make a setting where magic is easy and plentiful then you have to handle the cultural consequences.

Well, you don't have to. There's no real problem with handwaving things.

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Well, you don't have to. There's no real problem with handwaving things.

That works fine for basic worldbuilding. However, you need the players to buy into it, as well.

I think the usual problem (and this may just be a thought experiment for gamers who like to theory-craft, most of the time) is the handwaving technically creates loopholes in the worldbuilding --- and player mages (or whatever) with resources and agency can exploit those loopholes --- so you end up with a choice between "let the players exploit your less-than-rigorous worldbuilding" or "try to find solid logic to close the loopholes."

But in practice, it doesn't come up at all if the players can just play along with whatever you write for them.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by kenclary

That works fine for basic worldbuilding. However, you need the players to buy into it, as well.

I think the usual problem (and this may just be a thought experiment for gamers who like to theory-craft, most of the time) is the handwaving technically creates loopholes in the worldbuilding --- and player mages (or whatever) with resources and agency can exploit those loopholes --- so you end up with a choice between "let the players exploit your less-than-rigorous worldbuilding" or "try to find solid logic to close the loopholes."

But in practice, it doesn't come up at all if the players can just play along with whatever you write for them.

It is a setting "this is how it work" fact, exactly the same than having a car/truck/airliner/cruise ship staying in one piece when grabbed by a strong cape with one hand and taken for a flight, or with any space setting with reactionless drive but no-one using them as WMD.

Usually, players go along with it. We all want to play :)

While theory-crafting, however, and in a setting where magic is easy and plentiful, and deities/supernatural beings do exist and influence the course of events, I would be fine telling the player :
"You as player are correct, but your character would never spot this logic loophole or exploit it, because of an in-universe global "taboo" field preventing him for thinking about it, enforced by supernatural powers beyond the scope of mortal being."
It is heavy handed, it is inelegant, but it solve the problem, and it is plausible.

Same with telling a player : yes, by our knowledge of physics/chemistry/logic/... XXX would work.
The universe your character is, however, run on magic and physics law are different, so it doesn't work.
A somewhat often required answer to various infinite power construct involving portals, ...

The players cannot have their cake (transmuting 1 kg of clay into 16kg of iron by expending a few hundreds calories - against all logic and science laws) and eat it (by insisting they should be able to "logically and scientifically" use that iron for whatever scheme they can think of)

[Micah Davis]

Originally Posted by kenclary

That works fine for basic worldbuilding. However, you need the players to buy into it, as well.

I think the usual problem (and this may just be a thought experiment for gamers who like to theory-craft, most of the time) is the handwaving technically creates loopholes in the worldbuilding --- and player mages (or whatever) with resources and agency can exploit those loopholes --- so you end up with a choice between "let the players exploit your less-than-rigorous worldbuilding" or "try to find solid logic to close the loopholes."

But in practice, it doesn't come up at all if the players can just play along with whatever you write for them.

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The players cannot have their cake (transmuting 1 kg of clay into 16kg of iron by expending a few hundreds calories - against all logic and science laws) and eat it (by insisting they should be able to "logically and scientifically" use that iron for whatever scheme they can think of)

If we're just trying to maintain relations with players, "Your character doesn't have Multimillionaire 2 like it would take to sell forty two tons of essential metal per day" feels like a better and fairer block than any setting mechanics. And, of course, you can insist on Invention rolls against Physics, Economics, or Thaumaturgy (as appropriate) to come up with suitable tricks, the same way we would insist on players inventing fingerprints make a roll against forensics.

Of course, if a player invests in Multimillionaire 2 and enough magic/economic sense to transform the economy, I'd just let him. Kind of a weird thing to want to do in a standard fantasy campaign, but let them have fun. A self-made merchant-mage millionaire? Why not? Why shouldn't you totally transform your society as a player character?