[Basic] Advantage of the Week: Magic Resistance

[Anthony]

The problem with modeling magic resistance on Resistant is that 10 points for +3, 15 points for +8, strongly encourages just going up to +8. This isn't normally an issue because resistance penalties for non-quick contest abilities are usually pretty modest, so +3 might already be 13- (83%) chance of resisting, and 5 extra points for 98% is questionable value, but when you're looking at a quick contest against a 16 it could be pushing you from 30% to 70% resistance.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem with modeling magic resistance on Resistant is that 10 points for +3, 15 points for +8, strongly encourages just going up to +8.

This gets into how Resistance itself is kind of... off. I think I get it; there were certain traits with proven prices from Third Edition and Third Edition (Revised), and so this was a somewhat complicated process of classifying the different forms of Resistance, then working backwards from their values to determine multipliers.

I did some quick numbers to see if I could find a good solution that preserves current values and... no. May have to table going in depth until we hit Resistance for the BAotW.

Originally Posted by Anthony

This isn't normally an issue because resistance penalties for non-quick contest abilities are usually pretty modest, so +3 might already be 13- (83%) chance of resisting, and 5 extra points for 98% is questionable value, but when you're looking at a quick contest against a 16 it could be pushing you from 30% to 70% resistance.

Blame it on my lack of recent experience but... can you give some examples?

When I think of it, I mostly think about direct combat applications and that... well... that doesn't strike me as a huge issue. I don't think there always needs to be an option where the Body Control or Mind Control mage can use Body Control or Mind Control College Spells (sorry, I know these are 3e Colleges... don't have my 4e stuff handy, and going from memory). When it comes to more broad colleges, I'm used to having other answers, from the simple (Missile Spells), to the still-not-complicated; indirect uses of magic on the subject.

Meaning I'm used to:

Oh, Magic Resistance! Better not try Mass Sleep. What to do...

• Missle Spell spam, fighting alongside my crew
• Rain of [insert thing] Spell, when my teammates are clear
• Illusion to lead the targets away or otherwise confusion them.
• Something like surprise Shape Earth. ;)

I get it, that is oversimplifying but... that's the problem. The Standard Magic System is pretty generous at presenting options. Most mages I've built - and maybe it just shows how bad I am at it, wouldn't have been without options if they faced foes with high levels of Magic Resistance. I was mostly a way for characters with one or more low Attributes to more easily resist spells. I assume that was why Ogres in Fantasy Folk had it; so that Ogres wouldn't be oddly easy pickings for most mages.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Otaku

This also sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure what multipliers are appropriate for the lower costs. Does one just redo the entire thing, giving a per level Price? Pull a Damage Resistance and say that, if you want immunity, just ask the GM how much you need to buy to be functionally immune? Still keep the "Full Immunity" price but redo everything below that point? I know this may sound like I'm actually trying to discourage it, but I really would like to know what people think are solid guidelines for this! XD Whether for mild benefits that add flavor to low CP characters, or for tailoring your build to hit the exact numbers you want in this situation, it sounds useful.

I'd initially just keep the numbers that already exist and assume they are correct. Since +3 is 10 and +8 is 15, we could look at;

+1 - [5]
+2 - [8]
+3 - [10]
+4 - [11]
+5 - [12]
+6 - [13]
+7 - [14]
+8 - [15]

But that feels wrong. Then again, I also find +8 being half instead of 2/3rds to seem off (which I had assumed it was for a long time). Considering that resistant to magic does work differently than resistant to (say) metabolic hazards (since it would mostly result as part of contests and not random noxious stuff), then I could see two changes;

Resistant also gets in your way as a further downside of magic. If they choose to resist, you get their bonus as a penalty, as per Magic Resistance.
Resistant goes up in bonus more slowly. Using my original thoughts on Resistant, that means it would be 20pts for +8, which means each bonus starts at about 4pts and starts to get cheaper as it goes up, maybe topping at +10 for 25pts. Actually immunity means never worrying about die rolls and further being able to resist a few more spells that don't normally have resistance rolls but would be stopped by immunity.

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem with modeling magic resistance on Resistant is that 10 points for +3, 15 points for +8, strongly encourages just going up to +8. This isn't normally an issue because resistance penalties for non-quick contest abilities are usually pretty modest, so +3 might already be 13- (83%) chance of resisting, and 5 extra points for 98% is questionable value, but when you're looking at a quick contest against a 16 it could be pushing you from 30% to 70% resistance.

Another thought, to keep prices 'the same', is to make it if someone has any amount of Resistant, it also gives the caster a -3 to casting. The +8 is still amazing, but it's not equally better from +3.

If we were to break resistant down into equal cost levels, Immunity might just be close enough to +10 that we could just say +1 is 3pts and go up from there. It's close enough to +3. But I'd rather try to find out why +8 is 15pts before I jump that gun.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

But I'd rather try to find out why +8 is 15pts before I jump that gun.

Two reasons:
1) It's much higher than the +3 version despite not being a lot higher in price because of diminishing returns.
2) It costs much less than full immunity because any chance is a lot more than no chance, and the +8 version also doesn't affect things that don't give a roll.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Two reasons:
1) It's much higher than the +3 version despite not being a lot higher in price because of diminishing returns.
2) It costs much less than full immunity because any chance is a lot more than no chance, and the +8 version also doesn't affect things that don't give a roll.

Thanks, that lines up with my thoughts. But on that note, +8 for 15pts is very close to MR8 being 16pts. This also makes me much more okay with the expanded table I posted. Yeah, each +1 is worth 1pt from 3-8, which doesn't quite fit the curve, so maybe +4 could be 12pts and each shifts up a point, skipping +7. Importantly, +1 is 5pts. I don't know if that's worth it.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Two reasons:
1) It's much higher than the +3 version despite not being a lot higher in price because of diminishing returns.
2) It costs much less than full immunity because any chance is a lot more than no chance, and the +8 version also doesn't affect things that don't give a roll.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't know if I agree with it. It just seems like a YMMV kind of thing, or a pitfall of game design and GM/player communication and expectations. Technically a character is getting more out of those first few increases to their target roll than than later increases... but some of that is part of running a good game.

I think what awesomenessofme1 is saying is true to a certain point, but when it comes to actually building a character, I'm usually fixating on a target number and not how "Wonderful, I'm now X% more likely to succeed when there are no modifiers!". If it is something I don't want to sweat, I want to roll against a 16. If I expect to roll at a penalty often enough, I might aim for 18, 20, etc.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Moreover, Switchable Magic Resistance seems to require a Ready maneuver to switch, which is a problem when you're bleeding out while unconscious. A "Hostile Spells Only" enhancement would seem to be in demand- it would require judgement calls and a certain amount of reading intent, but it would hardly be the first place where the magic system brings those issues to the forefront.

I think that's +300% according to the Nordlond Hand of Asgard supplement (Trickster's power?).

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Anders

+100%. That is also pretty bad.

Heh. I forgot that I gave it that value for Magic Resistance in Thaumatology, and referred to Powers, where Switchable is a flat +10%. Careless of me. For that matter, Thaumatology should have been more explicit about the fact that it was superseding Powers in this respect.

I must admit, though, that while I've used Magic Resistance on my own characters, I've never taken it to a level where a healer with a decent rating in some healing effect couldn't bull through it - or where that +100% to cost would be overwhelming. It tends to be there on my characters as a nice little extra bit of resilience rather than as functional immunity.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Moreover, Switchable Magic Resistance seems to require a Ready maneuver to switch, which is a problem when you're bleeding out while unconscious. A "Hostile Spells Only" enhancement would seem to be in demand- it would require judgement calls and a certain amount of reading intent, but it would hardly be the first place where the magic system brings those issues to the forefront.

MR with Switchable and/or Improved, or with a 'Hostile Spells Only' enhancement (+50%?) could be an interesting thing to add to an alternate Magery talent - the more powerful a mage you are, the harder it is to hurt you with direct magic, even if you haven't got any other defences up. I've suggested it for settings before, but haven't seen it used in a game.

[Anthony]

You could always take Magic Resistance (Resistance Rolls Only, -X%). That's half as effective against resisted spells (since it doesn't penalize skill) and entirely ineffective against non-resisted hostile spells like Deathtouch, but almost all hostile spells are either resisted or wouldn't be affected by magic resistance in the first place (missiles, jets, etc).