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Old 03-12-2021, 12:25 PM   #31
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Jumper

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Alright, I'll spell it out _exactly_.

The newspaper headline is on a speciific newspaper with today's date on it and the only difference is the name of the president in the headline. The newspaper is in a coin-operated box in front of a convenience store exactly like the one your departure point has.

Visualizing that gets you the IQ-3 roll that is the best you can do.
Under almost any circumstances I'd just toss the dice and say 'you fail' if someone were silly enough to attempt that targeting. Unless the rule is 'literally every possible world exists' there's no reason to have a world so exact-yet-divergent as to contain that artifact.

Also, I'd suggest that if your rules demand genie-lawyering behavior out of players, you probably have chosen poor rules.
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Perhaps you can visualize a future civilization but at best I'd let you do that with the standard TL penalties whihc are -15 for TL8 to TL11 and impossible for a greater spread.
'GM discretion' says you can certainly do that, but it's 100% your invention.
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As an alternative, how can you wander around the alternate universes at random (and "discover" things)? The rules text in Characters provides no way to do that intentionally at all. You can try to go somewhere specific and roll a crit fail but that's about it.
Take the New Worlds enhancement obviously, and use the rules right there on the page. They don't say anything about malicious wish parsing, or having to paint a detailed (word) picture, or have the in-character knowledge to detail the mechanisms of all the world's technology.

You do need to inject some interpretation probably, because all it actually says is that "You can deliberately aim for worlds you haven’t visited", with a later reference indicating that you somehow indicate a desired target.
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Old 03-12-2021, 01:00 PM   #32
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Jumper

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post

Also, I'd suggest that if your rules demand genie-lawyering behavior out of players, you probably have chosen poor rules.

'
You've done a good bit of rules-lawyering yourself. After all you were going to send me off to world where there was a graphic novel that had that headline. I was just trying to avoid the sort of wish-crocking you had suggested.

You say use the rules on the page but what are you visualizing when you want to go to a random world? You've carped about "clear" visualization not being necessary but visualization is definitely required.
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Old 03-12-2021, 01:19 PM   #33
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Jumper

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You've done a good bit of rules-lawyering yourself. After all you were going to send me off to world where there was a graphic novel that had that headline. I was just trying to avoid the sort of wish-crocking you had suggested.

You say use the rules on the page but what are you visualizing when you want to go to a random world? You've carped about "clear" visualization not being necessary but visualization is definitely required.
You're the one who decided that trying to go to Ultratech gets you Disneyland. I was just trying to demonstrate the same level of malicious implementation applied to a use case you didn't want to fail.


"Visualization" is a word used, yes. Except visual visualization is definitely not required, because again blindness. In fact, any conventional sensory impression isn't required, because worlds are memorized by 'feel' once you're anywhere in them, just by concentrating. You don't need to have witnessed anything distinctive within the world you're observing.

So I don't consider "what are you visualizing" to be a useful question. Jumpers most likely 'visualize' worlds in ways that we non-Jumpers simply don't have applicable senses for.

However, the question of how the "desired destination" for a New Worlds jump is defined...seems like a good question with no textual answer, yes.
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Old 03-13-2021, 05:43 PM   #34
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Jumper

So, anyone else wondering why they didn't just combine the two forms of "Jumper" with "Warp"? Maybe it is quite obvious that they are too different, and I'm just being foolish in thinking they could be homogenized into a single trait. Then again, the opposite position also makes sense to me; we have Jumper, we have Warp... we just need a third term so that Jumper can go to only one of "Time" or "World" jumping, and the other gets the new term.

I have not run a character with either form of Jumper. I have not been the GM of one. It sounds like a hard trait to keep in line, in part because I think the kneejerk reaction of "You can't do that." is just that: reflexive. It is a very expensive trait; unless it has so many Limitations it simply cannot function as the answer to a problem, sometimes it should "cheat" the system, because it isn't a cheat but the intended solution!

Still, even assuming you have a form of Jumper that isn't fast enough to act as a defense, or so bogged down with Limitations it basically only works as a plot point, there are ways to still make it worth a single player's CP. You're not just the bus driver for the part, but the driver and the bus. Even if the other PC's have leverage, the PC with Jumper ultimately has final say. Well, apart from the GM. ;) Just like in any sort of "traveling" story, really. If one of the characters is the driver/pilot/etc. of the vehicle that the party uses for travel, handle it wrong and the player is stuck doing a job better reserved for NPCs.

Jumper seems like a good trait to double as an Unusual Background. If you have Jumper, it can explain your character having access to certain equipment or even other traits that are less common in your campaign setting. If this sounds "broken", try looking at it in the same way you would high levels of Wealth, or whatever Social Advantages you think would justify something similar in your setting. Just remember that you'll need to spend CP on it if you want it to be something your character reliably has access to. For example, you might not need to take Higher TL if you only want your character to have a single Ultra Tech goodie, but you probably should consider making it Signature Gear.

Could Alternate Abilities be another option? I mean, that applies to a wide variety of Advantages, so let me be a bit more specific about utilizing it with respect to Jumper. If Jumper is important enough that the collective Party wants at least one PC to have access to it, and the GM is willing to sign off on it, using it alongside Alternate Abilities could be a decent accounting trick, if not a legitimate discount. Even in one of those settings where Jumper is one of the few Exotic Advantages permitted, whether it is magical, time based, divine, etc. since you know you're not using Jumper (Time) except under specific circumstances, take something like Precognition and/or Psychometry as Alternate Abilities. If the GM/setting permit it, even more creative options could be justified... like an Innate Attack representing how "Well, I can try to just send someone else jumping through time (realities), but it doesn't work right. Parts of them start to go, but stop and just end up somewhere near their main body."
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Last edited by Otaku; 03-14-2021 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Sorry for the rewrite; thought I wasn't being as clear as I needed to be.
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Old 03-13-2021, 05:53 PM   #35
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Jumper

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
So, anyone else wondering why they didn't just combine the two forms of "Jumper" with "Warp"? Maybe it is quite obvious that they are too different, and I'm just being foolish in thinking they could be homogenized into a single trait. Then again, the opposite position also makes sense to me; we have Jumper, we have Warp... we just need a third term so that Jumper can go to only one of "Time" or "World" jumping, and the other gets the new term.
I wouldn't push for it, but I definitely like the idea of them becoming one trait namely to fuse the mechanics together. Imagine something like Warp having a +50% enhancement of "can jump to other worlds at an additional -5" and a 0% enhancement of "can only jump to other worlds" and either way takes into account of how Warp works.
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Old 03-15-2021, 08:45 AM   #36
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Jumper

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
So, anyone else wondering why they didn't just combine the two forms of "Jumper" with "Warp"? Maybe it is quite obvious that they are too different, and I'm just being foolish in thinking they could be homogenized into a single trait. Then again, the opposite position also makes sense to me; we have Jumper, we have Warp... we just need a third term so that Jumper can go to only one of "Time" or "World" jumping, and the other gets the new term.
The two names are also similar and generic enough I got confused about which was which early on. The two advantages have a strong connection: both are about disappearing in one location and reappearing in another. Most of the modifiers that apply to one can apply to the other: Naked, Carrying Capacity, Tunnel, Special portal, Drift... They all work for both.


The most annoying thing for me is that the requirements for a hop are different for both. I always have to look up which one takes 10 seconds and which one takes 30, and what the penalties for going faster with either one are.


Quote:
Jumper seems like a good trait to double as an Unusual Background. If you have Jumper, it can explain your character having access to certain equipment or even other traits that are less common in your campaign setting. If this sounds "broken", try looking at it in the same way you would high levels of Wealth, or whatever Social Advantages you think would justify something similar in your setting. Just remember that you'll need to spend CP on it if you want it to be something your character reliably has access to. For example, you might not need to take Higher TL if you only want your character to have a single Ultra Tech goodie, but you probably should consider making it Signature Gear.
Wealth is a good comparison. Filthy Rich breaks a lot of campaigns, but If one of the characters is Filthy Rich, the campaign is about filthy rich problems... and that can be a lot of fun. Similarly, Jumpers have to deal with jumper problems.


Quote:
Could Alternate Abilities be another option?
Alternate abilities can make jumper a LOT cheaper, and you usually don't need it during a fight, so its a great candidate, if you can justify the alternate ability.


***************************************


I'm looking at how jumper has been used in my games.



In lost in dreams, it was given out for free and was under the control of the GM for most the game. A few characters did gain control of the ability, but they mostly just used it to travel between worlds they wanted to visit.



In Worlds of Fire, my jumper ability was mostly used as an emergency escape route. More convenient and reliable transport was available. Its nice to be able to leave though.



The Death of Smallpox had jumper, as an alternate ability to warp, actually. It was a fluff ability, not a combat ability, but he did a lot of traveling back and forth: his unkillable three formed him in the realm of the dead, so when he died he needed jumper to come back. That game ended too soon, so I didn't get to use the ability much. Warp was more relevant to that character though.


In my game notes one NPC killed a lich by sending him to another world with the equivalent of exoteleport. (The NPC was working with reich-5, and I ended up dropping him from that adventure because of time restraints).



The Dragon NPC's used jumper in combination with dupe and morph mostly as a form of unkillable 3, to be honest. Which is a fine use, but not exactly typical.



Godslayers featured Herazian as it main villain, a small 'g' god who could travel between worlds, but he never used his ability, relying instead on warp.


So I don't think I've ever seen a character use jumper for anything other than getting where the action is. Its convenient, but I don't think I've ever seen it used strategically.
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Old 03-16-2021, 10:03 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Jumper

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=5782

I explicitly allow Time Stop as a choice for Jumper and frankly it often seems the least problematic as a GM.
I hadn't seen those notes before. Thanks for the link.

The Time Stop alternate version of Jumper aligns with a concept I've done in my games. I've used Jumper as the basis of a "Wish" ability for affecting the world around you. With Wish, you change reality... so it should be no different than jumping to another world that matches the new reality you are wishing into existence.

Yes, there are "technical" difference (for lack of a better word) if you follow the core description of Jumper, in that since you jumped to another world your friends are not really your original friends but their equivalent in another world... all the other players are technically changing characters to play a new character who just happens to be exactly the same. And there's technically now an alternate world somewhere where your original friends/allies are wondering where you disappeared to (possible future GM adventure hook!). And you're likely replacing the you on the other world who did everything you did up until that point (did he replace you in your original world? Another GM hook)

To me those technical details aren't important. The world is different due to the wish. So Jumper made a great basis for costing a Wish ability (100 CP), or at least with respect to changing the world around you (other things you could do required other abilities, which I crammed into a Modular Ability). But Wish basically became an alternate version of Jumper for me. Glad to see Timestop took the same approach (as it likewise ignores various "technical" aspect of changing worlds.)
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Old 03-16-2021, 06:11 PM   #38
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Jumper

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I hadn't seen those notes before. Thanks for the link.
You're welcome. I think other books have them too, but it's a little complicated going around the gurps site to find those links.

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Originally Posted by Kallatari View Post
With Wish, you change reality... so it should be no different than jumping to another world that matches the new reality you are wishing into existence.

Yes, there are "technical" difference...

...To me those technical details aren't important. The world is different due to the wish.
That sounds like a fantastic variant of New Worlds; Mechanically the same, but the old world doesn't exist and thus you can never 'memorize' worlds, but you also don't have to deal with the idea of other worlds existing as part of the power (both as a GM and as a player).

As for the 'well, they're technically new characters that happen to be exactly the same' it reminds me of some philosophical discussions and Star Trek's teleportation system; You aren't actually displaced to another location, but rather torn down to the smallest possible pieces and put back together in a new location. Is your new body your old body? Are you the same person? Mechanically speaking in gurps, yes, so philisophically and flavorfully you can say yes as part of the ability.

Also, as a further twist, I feel like this can work as a one use option for creation powers; Instead of directly buying Jumper (Wish) which might be too strong to the GM, you can spend 50pts to make a wish and change the world. It's just Jumper (Wish +50%, No Roll Required +100%, One Use 1/5) [50] with the intent of saying "Spend 50pts and some FP to utterly change the world in a way the GM can work with".
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Old 03-17-2021, 08:24 AM   #39
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Jumper

Using Jumper to satisfy some versions of wish is a nice idea. It feels like it should cost more than simply traveling to a different time or world though. You get to specify the conditions on the world where you are, and that's powerful. At lest +100%, and a case can be made its worth more.



**********************************
Pyramid 63 had "Lord of Your Own Domain", which lets a special version of jumper give you access to a pocket dimension. I've always found it frustratingly expensive, but its probably an ideal to buy as an alternative to world-jumping.
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Old 03-17-2021, 08:32 AM   #40
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Jumper

It is a really cool (and strange idea). Imagine tuning it up to 11...

I want to jump to an alternate version of this world, except one where this table has mysteriously had a large amount of otherwise completely normal tapas have materialized just after I appear.

I want to jump to an alternate version of this world where the bad-guy just suddenly stopped existing 1 second after I appear.

Etc.

Or the big-scale stuff of course: I want to jump to a utopia version of this world, etc.
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