[Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

[David Johnston2]

It does if you look at the wider picture. Most PC's, myself included, tend to aim for that magical spell level of 15.. With an IQ of 14 for [80], and Magery 3 for [35], and then the fireball spell and prerequisites at 1 point each for another [5]. That's 120 points spent to be able to cast Fireball at skill 15.

Why would you get an IQ of 14 for a single spell? And having spent 120 points, is spending another 8 really that big a deal?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Why would you get an IQ of 14 for a single spell? And having spent 120 points, is spending another 8 really that big a deal?

To be fair he needs the [35] for magery 3 cause of the missile charging rules

So it not 120 vs 8. it is 120 vs 65 to cast Fireball-15

Edit of Course what he really wants in that case is Magery 3 (one spell only) for [11] making it 120 vs 27

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Why would you get an IQ of 14 for a single spell? And having spent 120 points, is spending another 8 really that big a deal?

You intentionally pick at things to try to make your argument without actually looking at the picture, don't you?

I didn't feel the need to list another 50 spells to make my point. I simply stated that there are 120 points behind that Fireball-15 at a minimum, and that it would seem to me that requiring another 8 points (and this assumes 40 points spent in DX, btw) to be competent at hitting a target in anything outside of ideal conditions at a range of six feet, seems excessive.

That 8 points may very well be a 'big deal' if you account for the expediture of points on measely things like other skills and spells, advantages that are not Magery, etc. If you're playing some 400 point game, then maybe you've got plenty of spare points to throw around.. In what I've come to see as a more common power level of 200-250 points, I've found that you run out of that "other 8 points" rather quickly.

If following the assumptions Kromm says he follows when responding to such questions, then it is even more likely to be a "big deal" to come up with those other 8 points, as a 150 point character doesn't have all those extra points to throw around.

sir_pudding offered a solution. You seem to want to challenge my request for that solution.

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

To be fair he needs the [35] for magery 3 cause of the missile charging rules

So it not 120 vs 8. it is 120 vs 65 to cast Fireball-15

Edit of Course what he really wants in that case is Magery 3 (one spell only) for [11] making it 120 vs 27

I'm not understanding your math, roguebfl..

Besides which, the discussion is not getting the fireball spell at skill 15. It's hitting with the fireball after you cast it.

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

sir_pudding offered a solution.

Just remember that the perk applies per missile spell, so if you've got a large array of different missile spells you enjoy casting (instead of just blowing everything up with fireballs) then it starts to become less viable.

Assuming you pick up one or two per elemental college (not a stretch of the imagination if you want to be able to target weaknesses or avoid immunities) then you might actually be better off just investing the CP into the Innate Attack skill. Of cause for a low CP total starting character who favours one spell, the perk is certainly the way to go. Just make sure you GM isn't enforcing perk limits or prereqs (as Magic Styles suggests as an option) and if they are that you actually qualify.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

I'm not understanding your math, roguebfl..

Besides which, the discussion is not getting the fireball spell at skill 15. It's hitting with the fireball after you cast it.

I'm saying 'just to cast' Fireball spell at 15 does Not cost 120 point. If that is the only spell you want, then you only need 27 points, 5 points for Magery 0, then 3 levels of Magery with the One Spell only limitation for another 6 points. 4 points for prerequisites. then 12 points to buy a hard skill at attribute + 2 This will let you Cast Fireball spell at skill 15.

if you paying more than that they you are Not paying that just to cast the spell you spending more to have other options as well.

And it does matter be the Innate attack (projectile) that you buy for 8 more points works with ALL missile spells not just fireball.

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

Just remember that the perk applies per missile spell, so if you've got a large array of different missile spells you enjoy casting (instead of just blowing everything up with fireballs) then it starts to become less viable.

Assuming you pick up one or two per elemental college (not a stretch of the imagination if you want to be able to target weaknesses or avoid immunities) then you might actually be better off just investing the CP into the Innate Attack skill. Of cause for a low CP total starting character who favours one spell, the perk is certainly the way to go. Just make sure you GM isn't enforcing perk limits or prereqs (as Magic Styles suggests as an option) and if they are that you actually qualify.

Yes, all that is true.. IME, though, most of my players (and myself when I play a mage) will only buy 4 or so at the most, and are likely to stick with their favorites.

Now, if you're in a high point level campaign, it is certainly feasible to have a lot of missile spells, and in that case (and assuming the GM is restricting amounts of perks as you mention), it would make sense to buy up Innate Attack instead. Though with four specializations to Innate Attack, you're coming into the territory of even more points spent.

I think the best option, if you have the points, and with the above "DX 12 Mage" I've been using as an example, would be to buy the most used version up to DX+5, and let the others default from there, to a level of DX+3. So for 16 points, you could have Innate Attack (Projectile) at 17, and the others at 15.

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

I'm saying 'just to cast' Fireball spell at 15 does Not cost 120 point. If that is the only spell you want, then you only need 27 points, 5 points for Magery 0, then 3 levels of Magery with the One Spell only limitation for another 6 points. 4 points for prerequisites. then 12 points to buy a hard skill at attribute + 2 This will let you Cast Fireball spell at skill 15.

That's fine for a Johnny One Spell.. but not for what most of us think about when we say "Mage", I think.

Your build above would be good for, say, a swordsman that can cast a fireball. And such a swordsman would be more likely to have a DX 14 and be able to get Innate Attack (Projectile) at 15 for only 2 points.

if you paying more than that they you are Not paying that just to cast the spell you spending more to have other options as well.

I never said it was for only that single ability to cast that single spell. From the beginning, I've been arguing that a "Mage" shouldn't be expected to be good at physical things like "Throwing" in order to hit with magic....

Whether he's using Fireball, Ice Ball, Stone Missile, Winged Knife, Sunbolt, or whatever, my feeling is that the fact that he is a mage should do something to make it easier for him to hit with magic attacks.

And it does matter be the Innate attack (projectile) that you buy for 8 more points works with ALL missile spells not just fireball.

Uhm, not all missile spells. Most, perhaps.. Plus take into account that spells like Flame Jet or Breathe Fire have their own specializations for Innate Attack skill.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

I never said it was for only that single ability to cast that single spell. From the beginning, I've been arguing that a "Mage" shouldn't be expected to be good at physical things like "Throwing" in order to hit with magic....

Given even DnD required you to make a THAC0 or BAB roll with many spells especial weapon like ones (they of course also had auto hit spless too) you have an wired expectation there. To expect not to need physical ability to proforme a physical action. After all ther are Regualr spells that can kill you foes too if want to use a pure mental power spell caster

Originally Posted by Dragyn

Uhm, not all missile spells. Most, perhaps.. Plus take into account that spells like Flame Jet or Breathe Fire have their own specializations for Innate Attack skill.

yes all missile spells Flame Jet and Breath Fire IIRC are not Missle Spells.

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Given even DnD required you to make a THAC0 or BAB roll with many spells especial weapon like ones (they of course also had auto hit spless too) you have an wired expectation there. To expect not to need physical ability to proforme a physical action. After all ther are Regualr spells that can kill you foes too if want to use a pure mental power spell caster

Which is why I mentioned up thread that my preferred solution would be adding magery to Innate Attack for the use of Missile Spells..

yes all missile spells Flame Jet and Breath Fire IIRC are not Missle Spells.

Off the top of my head, I think Lightning and Sunbolt fail to meet the requirements of a 'projectile'. YMMV

And I did not say that Flame Jet and Breathe Fire were Missile Spells. I simply stated that they require the use of Innate Attack specialties.