[DF] Extra Effort in Combat

[Taliesin]

I felt that extra effort was breaking the game. It changes a lot of the basic rules of combat at the expense of requiring players to manage a resource. Problem was it was a resource that most players never run out of so it was basically free charges and defense bonuses for everyone except the spell slingers.
Rather that ban EE entirely I have decided to change the cost from 1 FP to 5 FP. Enough to make player really think about when to use it. I'm going to try this out during this Sundays game. If that doesn't produce a change I like I'm just going to ban extra effort.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

I felt that extra effort was breaking the game. It changes a lot of the basic rules of combat at the expense of requiring players to manage a resource. Problem was it was a resource that most players never run out of so it was basically free charges and defense bonuses for everyone except the spell slingers.
Rather that ban EE entirely I have decided to change the cost from 1 FP to 5 FP. Enough to make player really think about when to use it. I'm going to try this out during this Sundays game. If that doesn't produce a change I like I'm just going to ban extra effort.

Players never run out of FP? Your average human is only gonna be able to spend 6 FP before he's at halved move, dodge, and ST. I blew through 5 FP in a single round last game to try to dive out of the way of a bunch of crossbow bolts.

IME, extra effort gives very brief bursts of limited usefulness. It's not sustainable, it's not that powerful, and it allows the utilization of a resource that many GMs don't actually enforce the rules on the expenditure of.

[SuedodeuS]

If you are having difficulties due to EE being "free," rather than increasing the cost you can, from time to time, take away the chance to rest. Collapsing/exploding towers, being pursued by superior forces, etc can all make it so that the characters have to fight and then keep going without wasting time recovering FP. You can also have fights that get reinforcements (preferably by a force superior to the first and showing up after the heroes have burned most of their "free" FP) and/or back-to-back fights. Both cases might get your players to start using EE only when necessary, just in case they'll need it later.
It can also lead to dissatisfied and/or paranoid players, so don't use it if you think that's a distinct possibility! A game should always remain fun.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

If you are having difficulties due to EE being "free," rather than increasing the cost you can, from time to time, take away the chance to rest. Collapsing/exploding towers, being pursued by superior forces, etc can all make it so that the characters have to fight and then keep going without wasting time recovering FP. You can also have fights that get reinforcements (preferably by a force superior to the first and showing up after the heroes have burned most of their "free" FP) and/or back-to-back fights. Both cases might get your players to start using EE only when necessary, just in case they'll need it later.
It can also lead to dissatisfied and/or paranoid players, so don't use it if you think that's a distinct possibility! A game should always remain fun.

DF is probably one of the genre's were it is least free as you tend to need to kick open the next door. IF they do not go to the monsters make the monsters come to them, or do they PC's really spend a hour or more resting after each fight?

[Bruno]

Mlangsdorf is sort of running a hybrid DF/Fantasy game, as he really likes pushing the wilderness survival and exploration side. As a consequence, we're keeping track of things like fatigue from travelling. Random wilderness encounters are a DF classic concept, and being down 3 or 4 FP because you've got armor (or just a big bag of looted treasure) is a pretty big dent. Never mind environmental hazards (or starvation!) causing FP loss, never mind Fatigue damage attacks.

If you're in the kind of game that glosses over these sorts of things, and player characters always get to barricade themselves for a rest after each fight (don't forget that you take your encumbrance level +1 in fatigue after each fight!) then Extra Effort will be "free bonuses".

I'm not sure that still makes it a bad thing, though. Lots of systems give players a refillable pool of points with which to influence things - willpower points in World of Darkness games, hero points, action points, bennies, poker chips, etc. My table top group really likes the mechanic, and Extra Effort fills in for it nicely in GURPS, with spending CP on successes as an "upgrade" in emergencies. FP spent does less than, say, spending a willpower point in WoD (guarentees a success on unopposed rolls and really helps on opposed ones) but you get them back easier. It balances.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

I felt that extra effort was breaking the game. It changes a lot of the basic rules of combat at the expense of requiring players to manage a resource. Problem was it was a resource that most players never run out of so it was basically free charges and defense bonuses for everyone except the spell slingers.

I am not getting the "free" part... FPs are a replenishable but finite resource, with penalties for over-use. And the non-spellcasters otherwise have nothing to with 'em. All the PCs get the chance to use Extra Effort (even the spellcasters), and at least some of your opponents. The only argument against its use that I can understand is the extra complication it brings... but if you are already putting up with the vagaries of magic, why not give the other types of characters some toys to play with?

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Carlos

And Shake It Off is VERY good. Is that a good idea to allow it on a DF game?

Overally speaking, I love the Extra Effort rules.

If this particular option is "too good" for your gaming style, maybe you can require 2 or more Fatigue Points for Shake It Off. In this way players would use it less frequently, or with different consequences, without you completely disallowing the option.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Mlangsdorf is sort of running a hybrid DF/Fantasy game, as he really likes pushing the wilderness survival and exploration side. As a consequence, we're keeping track of things like fatigue from travelling. Random wilderness encounters are a DF classic concept

It's interesting to know. Sounds good.

[Kalzazz]

I really really encourage allowing the Heroic Charge Extra Effort, it helps speed the game up a lot

'I move and attack the goblin' 'okay, you need a 9 . . . whish', very boring and time consuming

I also allow Mighty Blows and Flurry of Blows

Id probably allow the others if anyone ever wanted to use them

[Taliesin]

The minimum FP I have seen for a DF character is 12 FP. The average battle takes around eight seconds but they only need extra fatigue during 3-4 of those seconds. So the ones that need to recover rest while the others are searching the bodies, looking for secret doors etc. I've been playing GURPS for a long, long time and I've never seen fatigue become an issue except for mages. In the case of mages I've seen some that were always afraid to cast any spell because they "might need the manna more later".

[Bruno]

Your characters always have time to search the bodies immediately after killing them?

And never go into a fight tired after climbing hiking swimming etc?

Or hungry?

Huh.