Extra-effort in combat, too cheap?

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Also, won't higher skill reduce the FP cost of spellcasting?

Not for Grace or other spells that improve Attributes.

[vicky_molokh]

FP is useless with firearms?? What about boosting Dodge - is that useless too?

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Jim Bob

The thing about any set of rpg rules is that they assume you use them all together. If you just use one rule and ignore half the others, then that one rule won't work so well.

I realize that.
That's why I wish that fatigue rules were harsher. With current rules it's not that easy to lose significant amounts of FP due to sprinting, movement, swimming.

So even if you DO track fatigue expenditures, you'll need LOTS of fatiguing activities before the PCs become 'tired'.

If fatigue expenditures were harsher and/or less 'granular', they would be both easier to track and more significant for players and GM.

They're travelling from a big town to the dungeon, carrying their arms and armour as above, plus a rucksack with some food, a bedroll and so on. They're strong and so they only lose 4FP an hour schlepping all their stuff around.

This example is somewhat misleading, because
1) to lose 4 FP, the PCs would need to be at Heavy encumbrance. Heavy encumbrance PCs are exceedingly rare; you need to be a ultra-rich warrior to afford enough armor to get heavy encumbrance.

2) Hiking is the single activity who causes significant fatigue losses according to GURPS RAW.

3) According to B426, "If the party enters combat while on the march, assume they’ve been walking for an hour, unless events dictate otherwise, and assess fatigue accordingly". So usually the PCs will be at FP 8/12 if attacked during a march.

4) Most of the time, the PCs will have some form of transportation; even if they lack mounts, they can easily buy a Mule (or hire a servant with a cart) to carry most of their stuff, so they will probably be at none to medium encumbrance when hiking.

After two hours they're down to 4/12FP, and halve their movement, so they stop for a rest. They recover 8FP in 80 minutes rest, but the GM is nice and gives them a bonus for food and water, and they do it in just an hour. Or maybe they're Fit and it takes half an hour.

Or may be the GM is not insane, and he's not interested in spending half the evening calculating exactly how much the PCs rest (unless they are running a race or something). So he will simply fudge it, and assign the FP penalty for 1 hour of hiking (as Basic set suggests).

There's also FP loss from lack of food, water and sleep. During an adventure such FP loss will be common.

Common and trivial. Re-read B426... you lose 1 FP per missed meal, so you can go on for 2 days without eating before you lose half FP.
About lack of sleep: if you stay up late, you lose 1 FP, plus 1 FP per 4 extra hours. So you can stay awake for 36 hours before you lose half FP due to missed sleep.

And of course there's the FP loss after a combat.

Remember that this applies only for combats lasting more than 10 seconds.
As you said, "The thing about any set of rpg rules is that they assume you use them all together." ;-)

What if the party's magical healer spent all their FP on Extra Effort in combat and has no FP left to spend on healing spells?

I guess he will rest half an hour and heal his friends.

Of course the situation will be VERY dire if PCs will have to march for hours carrying a heavy load, and they will miss sleep, and they don't have enough food, and they have a couple of 10+ seconds fights, and they can't win those fights and they have to flee away from outnumbering foes and during this whole process they can never rest.
In this case, I agree with you that Fatigue expenditures will be significant and PCs will rarely resort to Extra Effort in combat.
But I'd argue this is not a typical adventuring session - usually PCs have to face some adversities, not ALL POSSIBLE ADVERSITIES at once... you are assuming a quite extreme situation to prove your point.

Originally Posted by Jim Bob

I strongly suspect our original poster doesn't track FP for anything but the Extra Effort rule. In which case, yes, it's overpowered.

Please note that, if you do track FP for everything and fatigue losses are so common as you described them, Extra-Effort will remain overpowered.
Simply because, if the party is always tired (half FP or less), it will be easier to use Extra Effort than to cast those expensive spells. In other words, the relative usefulness of Ex.Effort and spells will be the same, or possibly Extra Effort, being cheaper, will be even more effective.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Remember that this applies only for combats lasting more than 10 seconds.

Unless the combat starts at point-blank range and no one needs to move, it is highly likely that any combat involving several people will take 10 seconds or more.

Consider also that NPCs don't like to die and whenever it is tactically appropriate they should Retreat, use Feverish Defence (what's good for the goose is good for the gander), seek cover and/or move out of melee range.

Unless the PCs are exceedingly lucky, they should rarely be able to defeat the OpFor in one attack per foe. Even skill 12 foes can get to Active Defence rolls of 15+ with relatively ease as long as they use the options above.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Please note that, if you do track FP for everything and fatigue losses are so common as you described them, Extra-Effort will remain overpowered.
Simply because, if the party is always tired (half FP or less), it will be easier to use Extra Effort than to cast those expensive spells. In other words, the relative usefulness of Ex.Effort and spells will be the same, or possibly Extra Effort, being cheaper, will be even more effective.

With skill 15 or 20 in those spells, they can often be cast for 0 fatigue. That might not provide more than +1 or so, but it's cheaper than extra effort and it lasts for a minute.

Shield, for example, can often be maintained for free.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Not for Grace or other spells that improve Attributes.

The description of Grace does not state this.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The description of Grace does not state this.

You are right, only Might and Vigor do so. I always assumed the same was true for Grace.

Probably Grace's cost can be reduced because it's 4 for each +1 - so it's unlikely that a wizard will be able to maintain it for free.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Consider also that NPCs don't like to die and whenever it is tactically appropriate they should Retreat, use Feverish Defence (what's good for the goose is good for the gander), seek cover and/or move out of melee range

My advice would be to let only "important" NPCs use Feverish Defense.
Martial Arts itself states (p131( that if the GM let every NPC to use it, fights may last forever, and suggests to allow only a few characters to use Feverish Defense.
From a "balance/realism" perspective it might be a good thing, but from a "playability" perspective it will be terribly boring if each and every mook defends at 13+ (feverish, retreating dodge).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Lupo

My advice would be to let only "important" NPCs use Feverish Defense.
Martial Arts itself states (p131( that if the GM let every NPC to use it, fights may last forever, and suggests to allow only a few characters to use Feverish Defense.
From a "balance/realism" perspective it might be a good thing, but from a "playability" perspective it will be terribly boring if each and every mook defends at 13+ (feverish, retreating dodge).

In my campaigns, every NPC regards himself as important. ;)

In practice, this means that combats aren't over in a few seconds, no, but neither do they stretch out 'forever'. PCs know that flanking, Deceptive Attacks and Feints will lower those defences and so they choose other tactics than simply a basic attack every time.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Please note that, if you do track FP for everything and fatigue losses are so common as you described them, Extra-Effort will remain overpowered.
Simply because, if the party is always tired (half FP or less), it will be easier to use Extra Effort than to cast those expensive spells. In other words, the relative usefulness of Ex.Effort and spells will be the same, or possibly Extra Effort, being cheaper, will be even more effective.

This is only true if Extra Effort is actually more efficient than spellcasting, and as Kromm correctly noted, this is down to encounter design. It sounds to me like your fights tend to be against a small number of inferior foes under ideal circumstances, ending so quickly that no one needs to make more than a few EE-assisted rolls during the entire fight (and no one suffers fatigue loss afterward). Try making things hard for the PCs for once, and you'll find that either your players suddenly develop a sense of frugality or their PCs rapidly become exhausted.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Lupo

Not for Grace or other spells that improve Attributes.

This is only true of Might and Vigor. It isn't true of Grace or Wisdom (or for Alertness, Haste, or Strengthen Will). The reason for this is simply that Might raises HP via ST and Vigor raises FP via HT. Since FP and HP can be spent to cast spells, allowing "free" FP and HP for high skill would actually let a wizard create energy through casting!

Originally Posted by Lupo

Heavy encumbrance PCs are exceedingly rare

Most PCs are at Heavy, IME, and it doesn't have to do with wealth or armor, but with with food, water, tents, etc. Before TL6, quick-release packs simply don't exist. Moreover, you can't afford to toss kit when attacked on a mountainside or a rope bridge, fighting a running battle, battling in waist-deep water, etc. If you do, then you'll probably lose it . . . which means dying of thirst, starvation, exposure, or whatever. Indeed, harrassing attacks sometimes aim to accomplish this specific goal.

It's easy to reach 40-50 lbs. with your share of the group's basics, climbing gear, food, packs, rope, tents, water, etc., for about $200. Tack on even leather armor, a small shield, and a weapon (about $700-$800 and 30 lbs.), and a ST 10-11 man is at Heavy encumbrance. Improve that to mail and/or a medium shield, and even a ST 12-13 man is at Heavy.

Originally Posted by Lupo

Most of the time, the PCs will have some form of transportation; even if they lack mounts, they can easily buy a Mule (or hire a servant with a cart) to carry most of their stuff, so they will probably be at none to medium encumbrance when hiking.

This is inconsistent with your assumption that PCs are rarely wealthy enough to have sufficient armor to be at Heavy. Mounts, beasts of burden, and servants are for rich people. They're very rare for other PCs, IME. And of course calming a bucking beast terrified by combat certainly counts as part of "combat," as it's precipitated by the violence and tiring for the one doing it.

Originally Posted by Lupo

I guess he will rest half an hour and heal his friends.

Unless the PCs are in hostile territory and cannot run, another wave of attackers comes, etc. The GM probably shouldn't let the players assume that the PCs can rest after each fight. I often string together three or four battles so that the PCs are docked several times the "fighting a battle" FP cost before the violence ends.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Unless the combat starts at point-blank range and no one needs to move, it is highly likely that any combat involving several people will take 10 seconds or more.

Agreed. In fact, I simply assume this and have all battles but very rapid encounters ("I come up behind him and knife him," "You turn the corner and there's a guard," etc.) carry the FP cost. Especially since ancillary actions such as scouting, readying weapons and shields, dropping packs, and calming mounts are part of battle.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Unless the PCs are exceedingly lucky, they should rarely be able to defeat the OpFor in one attack per foe. Even skill 12 foes can get to Active Defence rolls of 15+ with relatively ease as long as they use the options above.

Very much agreed! Even the 900-point Weapon Master in my campaign, who has skill 28, sometimes needs a couple of turns to dispatch a non-mookish foe who's intent on not dying.

Originally Posted by Xplo

It sounds to me like your fights tend to be against a small number of inferior foes under ideal circumstances, ending so quickly that no one needs to make more than a few EE-assisted rolls during the entire fight (and no one suffers fatigue loss afterward).

That's what it sounds like to me, too. I don't consider it contrived or extreme at all for most violent encounters of any importance to involve three or more of:

• Battle lasting more than the minimum 10 seconds, whether gamed out or abstracted.
• Fighting in hostile terrain.
• Fighting on the run.
• Fighting while carrying a massive load of supplies and equipment.
• Foes who require many attacks to defeat and who can deliver many attacks before being defeated.
• Having to deal with scared beasts or protect frightened servants before, during, or after the battle.
• Having to displace immediately after the encounter due to the presence of overwhelming numbers or simply to avoid sacrificing surprise.
• Hordes of foes who rapidly encircle the PCs and saturate their defenses.
• Multiple waves of attackers with no appreciable break in between.

The above practically defines combat in "adventure fiction" or "heroic fiction." The heroes should always be pressed, tired, and barely holding on. That's what makes the victory so sweet: They beat terrible odds under adverse circumstances, drop to the ground afterward, and say, "Damn, but that was close!"

To apply my list to the battle vs. the undead I described earlier: The battle took place in a bottleneck where the PCs couldn't easily circle or retreat; was an ambush that gave the PCs no time to drop packs; involved three waves of attackers, two of which were able to rush and surround the PCs and one of which was a swarm that couldn't be dissipated fast enough to avoid some harm; and lasted a total of 15 seconds. That's typical of violence in my games, not some weird exception.