02-03-2009, 06:55 AM | #61 | |||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Torino, Italy
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Re: Extra-effort in combat, too cheap?
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"After some fights and experiments, I've come to think that generally Extra Effort costs about right and is more or less balanced with other combat/buff options." The only doubts I still have are about Feverish Defense and Mighty Blow, not Extra Effort in general. I hoped to receive comments about those. Quote:
This is not "fudging", it's a very sensible assumption (because PCs won't march till they are exhausted, they will march/rest/march/rest and so on, thereby recovering FP). Quote:
Nevertheless, many fights happen in relatively clear terrain, and many fights last 7, 8 or 9 seconds. Btw I usually assess FP expenditure anyway. Quote:
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Or, if you rule that FP loss can't be noticed, the same should apply to warriors, so there is no "advantage" for wizards. Quote:
If magic is somewhat common, it shouldn't be too frightening, because most foes should have realized that spells can be Resisted, are hard to perform from a distance, and probably a single spell won't turn anybody into a toad (unless the PC is a well-known archmage, of course.) If magic is rare and PCs are the only wizards in the area, then magic is more powerful and PCs should pay for an UB. Assuming that wizards should be more powerful than their CP total indicates, because everybody is terrified by them, is IMHO silly and unbalanced. Plus, I argue that a huge, armored fighter fighting ferociously (Extra Effort) IS frightening! Not less frightening that a mage casting a spell.
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02-03-2009, 06:07 PM | #62 | |||||||||
MIB
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Extra-effort in combat, too cheap?
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Another factor with magic is that it's magical. When we read the rules about it, it's easy to forget that unless magic is common as dirt, most people won't know exactly how it works. Not many settings will have magic taught like physics at high school. There are only so many things a person can do with a sword. But what can be done with magic? How powerful is the wizard? Did they just blast off their best spell, or could they summon all the demons of hell? What can they do? What can't they do? That mystery should create awe and fear. Quote:
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How can you tell if someone's at half Move, or near exhaustion, in a one-second combat round? I would say that's an Observation skill check. Observation is the skill of perceiving tactical things like that. Or if you're generous it could an IQ-based weapon skill check. Or perhaps a Per-based Tactics check. As well as sweating, there's tunnel vision. If you ever go for a hard run you'll notice that your peripheral vision stops, you can just see directly in front of you. The same thing happens to most people when blows or shots begin. For this reason, when I GM combats I say that to see anything much more than the foe directly in front of them the characters need either a Do Nothing round - they stop and look around - or else an Observation check. So a warrior with Broadsword-17 is adept at fighting, while one with Broadsword-17, Observation-15 and Tactics-12 is adept at fighting on a messy battlefield. The second warrior is the one who'll see that PC Gianni is being pressed back by the orc, and PC Matteo is fighting two orcs but is okay and dealing well with them, so Gianni needs help. They may also be able to see that the enemy wizard is staggering around exhausted. But just Broadsword-17 and Per 10 don't tell them that. Quote:
Once in a game session the PCs were fighting some warriors and met a wizard - the wizard was the father of the warriors. He walked in, and a PC struck him on the neck. But he wore an iron collar around his neck (it contained a geas which gave him his Magery, but also imposed the Truthful disadvantage on him, a gift/curse from the dwarves he'd got his magic from), so the blow bounced off. Next, he cast Flash - a burst of light in the room which blinded half the people in it and made the rest stumble around somewhat (DX-3). He told the PCs to stop fighting and lay down their arms. And they did. Because he survived a blow to his neck, and then followed up with a flash of light which blinded lots of people. What else could he do? They didn't know. So, half of them severely wounded and some blind, they surrendered. As it happened, he could have done not much - he had a few Mind Control spells, but most of them take some rounds to cast, so they could have cut him to pieces before he fired them off, and none would have destroyed the party in a go the way for example a Fireball could. But how could they know that? So they were frightened, and surrendered to him. In fact I did not make them roll Fright Checks or anything like that, it was all roleplayed. Of the four players, two gave up, two wanted to fight on; but one was injured and could barely fight, so that left only the warrior who had struck the wizard on the neck - and she didn't want to fight on her own. So the whole party surrendered. Quote:
In addition, if magic is so well-known, then perhaps people will know about powerstones. So that the wizard you see staggering around exhausted may have great reserves of magical energy to use. After all, a wizard with Recover Energy will gain FP back more quickly than the powerstone will recharge itself, even in a high mana area. So a prudent wizard will use at least some of their own FP before using their powerstone. He's sweating! He's staggering! He's about to fall! What? What's that large ruby on a chain around his neck? Uh-oh... Quote:
I think sometimes you need to forget the rules and imagine how it must be for those in the imaginary world. Just as most warriors won't fight to the death, so too will most people be awed by magic. We as gamers may have a Cartesian understanding of magic and how it works, but our characters usually won't. And even with that Cartesian understanding, people can still be impressed by things. I know a woman who's an automotive engineer, but when she sees a car zip past at 185km/hr on the testing grounds, she still says, "wow." Quote:
I think magic ought to be magical.
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02-04-2009, 03:50 AM | #63 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Extra-effort in combat, too cheap?
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But the CP cost for magic in GURPS assumes that the rules that govern magic are well enough known so that countermeasures can be taken by most foes. If magic is mysterious and frightening to the average foe, those who can use it should be charged a hefty Unusual Background because they gain benefits that the non-magic-using characters in the party do not.
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02-04-2009, 04:45 AM | #64 |
MIB
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Extra-effort in combat, too cheap?
Roleplaying goes beyond the point cost of stuff, you know. Otherwise we'd be more scared of IQ 12 [40] than High Pain Threshold and 15CP in combat skills.
Honestly.
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02-04-2009, 05:17 AM | #65 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Extra-effort in combat, too cheap?
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The basic GURPS Magic system is not designed to be used in a world where magic is rare and frightening. You can use it for such a world, but that requires modifications, such as Unusual Background. Stating that in the game world being used, one PC arbitrarily has an advantage over another, is not roleplaying. It's favoritism. If it is not arbitrary, what is wrong with acknowledging it before play and charging a balanced point value for the extra benefit? As an example, having a reputation as a fierce warrior would naturally affect the reactions of NPCs to the character. But do we chalk it up to 'roleplaying' and ignore the point cost? No, we do not. We charge points for Reputation. You've described a world where magic exists, but the average person has a superstitious aversion for it. Fine. But the cost of magic in such a world should not be the same as in one where magic exists and the average combatant is familiar enough with it to take mundane countermeasures which minimise his exposure to hostile magic. GURPS Magic assumes the latter to be true and you can't base your argument about how effective magic is on the former. Of course, GURPS is universal and generic, so it can support a world where magic is as you describe. But in that world it should cost far more to be a mage.
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