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Old 04-10-2022, 10:26 AM   #21
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Differentiating Weapon Types

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The main-gauche is already limited to blocking a hit from one-handed weapons, so it has the "light weapon" limitation built in.
However this sword defence works, main-gauche should work the same way.

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But if you add a defensive bonus to swords and no bonus to Ax/Mace, then the problem for Ax/Mace is exacerbated.
In this system axe damage is the same as ITL but sword damage is reduced.

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Already, there's a benefit to Sword, namely the Knife talent for free.
Which is silly, because the sword should be harder to learn than the axe/mace. As a draft I have Knife (1), Sword (1, requires Knife), Spear (1), Axe/Mace (1), to use a complex polearm (e.g. halberd) requires both Spear and Axe/Mace. But this is a whole different idea from giving swords a defence and can be considered separately.

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none of the PCs in my game have seen fit to use Ax/Mace at all.
There's also a perverse benefit in that you can have a starting character with Axe/Mace expertise but not with Sword Expertise.

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Still, I agree that simplicity is a key feature of this game, so perhaps best to leave well enough alone.
I feel we should be able to do something worthwhile, if we can just resist turning a paragraph into a page.
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Old 04-10-2022, 01:27 PM   #22
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Differentiating Weapon Types

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I feel we should be able to do something worthwhile, if we can just resist turning a paragraph into a page.
This is precisely why my thoughts for distinguishing characteristics are so short. Axe/Mace ignores 1 point of armor, Sword allows for a defensive attack, trading two or three DX on your attack to apply a small penalty to a foe's attack(which does not stack with Weapon Expertise). Those seem as tied to real-world qualities those weapons possess and are modest (in comparison to multiple attacks with bows and polearm charges).
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Old 04-10-2022, 05:12 PM   #23
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Differentiating Weapon Types

One advantage of Ax/Mace weapons over swords is that they are cheaper. You may find a starting player may afford a better fine ax/mace than sword if he went that route.

Depends on ST and available cash.

And when upgrading (move up a ST point) his ax/mace it will always be true that it will be cheaper than the sword.
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Old 04-10-2022, 05:37 PM   #24
TippetsTX
 
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Location: North Texas
Default Re: Differentiating Weapon Types

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I feel we should be able to do something worthwhile, if we can just resist turning a paragraph into a page.
How about half a page?

Weapon Traits are special capabilities or extra features for particular weapons on the table. For example, weapons with the close trait are compact enough to be used in same-hex combat while those with the reach trait are long enough to attack opponents beyond your adjacent hexes. Some traits may be associated with both an advantage and a disadvantage. Finally, traits may not be used without the appropriate WEAPON PROFICIENCY (e.g., a character swinging a battleaxe without AXE/HAMMER cannot take advantage of the sunder bonus).

Awkward - Whether due to their size, length or general profile, weapons with this trait are particularly unwieldy. As a result, they may not be used with the DEFEND option in combat. Additionally, the weapon may be impossible to use or even maneuver in certain environments.
Brace - Most often associated with polearms, the brace trait allows a defender to set their weapon against a charging foe. A successful hit with a braced weapon will deal extra damage (+1d6).
Catch - A 'catching' weapon provides a +2 DX bonus on Disarming (q.v.) rolls.
Close - These weapons may be used in HTH engagements, but they are too short for melee against foes in adjacent hexes.
Guard - Weapons with this trait are designed with defensive enhancements such as quillons, baskets or other types of extended hand or forearm protection. These features allow the weapon to be used as a small shield with the appropriate talent.
Hook - These weapons will have a feature to hook or grab their target. This requires an announced attack with the intent to hook (performed at -4 DX). Once hooked, the attacker can prevent his opponent's movement, pull them into a closer hex or even unhorse a rider.
Light - This trait is primarily relevant to two-weapon fighting. A light weapon in the figure's off-hand lessens the DX penalty.
Reach - Reach weapons are long, usually longer than 3m, and as such can be used to perform melee attacks against a target 2 hexes away. Due to their length, however, these weapons cannot be used against same-hex opponents.
Shield-wrap - A weapon with this trait is flexible in some way allowing it to strike over or around a target's shield. The shield's DX modifier is reduced by half (rounded down).
Sweep - These weapons may be used to perform Sweeping Blows (q.v.) in combat.
Swift - A swift weapon is designed to be quick and agile, granting the wielder a second attack during their turn. This extra attack is made at a -2 DX penalty and can only be used if the figure moves no more than one hex.
Sunder - Weapons with this trait are better at breaking things. Sundering (q.v.) rolls are reduced by 1-die.
Tangle - Only weapons with the tangle trait can be used to wrap/entangle a target's arms or legs. The Aimed Shot rules (q.v.) must be used to hit the intended body part which will also dictate the specific effect.
Throw - These weapons may be thrown as well as used in melee. Some may even be specifically balanced for throwing.
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Old 04-11-2022, 03:06 AM   #25
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Differentiating Weapon Types

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
My preference is to leave axe/mace/hammer weapons as they are. Swords can be made different by giving them some kind of limited defensive ability, to represent parrying, and a lower damage to compensate.
An active Parry option (replacing Defend) was my old group's house rule from almost the very beginning of TFT. With any ready hand weapon, a figure could elect to Attack or Parry, but not both in the same turn, unless that weapon was a light sword. We classed any sword lighter than a broadsword as a fencing sword (this was also before ITL or the Fencing talent ever came along) and added Epee and Foil to the weapons table. Whereas someone fighting with anything else had to choose between the options of Attack or Parry, the fighters with these lower damage swords were allowed to both Attack and Parry (in either order) in the same turn at -3 DX to each. Alternatively, they could also Attack twice or Parry twice in one turn, if desired, at -3 DX to each roll when using a light sword. It was optional of course - they could elect to only do one action without the -3 penalty.

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I'm thinking something like: blocks some damage against weapons which do damage less than or approximately equal to the damage of the parrying weapon. So a main-gauche can parry a light weapon but not a great sword. The parry ability gets more powerful as the weapon damage increases, so it can replace a percentage of its offensive ability. But I'm not sure about the details.
How we did it at the time was to allow a successful Parry (3vs adjDX) to block the full damage of a successful attack, but with a breaking point assigned to each weapon. You might Parry a big weapon with a much smaller one once, but then your weapon would be broken -- in nearly 20 years of play testing no one ever opted to take that chance and (for example) try to stop a morningstar with a rapier.

I wouldn't do it the same way today. I'd limit a successful Parry to only blocking some damage, not all. I think the simplest way to do this would be for the defender to roll for damage with their Parry weapon, and subtract that amount from the attacker's damage roll. The results would be excitingly unpredictable, while at the same time any weapon of ST n in a given weapon class would -- on average -- block all the hits from another weapon of ST n or less in the same weapon class, should the roll to Parry succeed.

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
But if you add a defensive bonus to swords and no bonus to Ax/Mace, then the problem for Ax/Mace is exacerbated.
We allowed all weapons to be used for a Parry attempt, we just also allowed low damage swords to do it more often. At the same time, an Ax/Mace could Parry a heavier weapon without breaking as easily as a light sword could.

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
However this sword defence works, main-gauche should work the same way.
We discarded all the original main-gauche rules, and simply allowed it to work exactly the same as a light sword would for attacks or parries. But we did set an upper limit for the size weapon it could attempt to Parry -- it was ST 12 or 13, I'd have to look that up. You could sacrifice a light sword attempting to Parry a huge weapon if you wanted to try, but the main-gauche wasn't even allowed to try.
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Last edited by Steve Plambeck; 04-11-2022 at 03:59 PM. Reason: included another detail
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Old 04-11-2022, 08:23 AM   #26
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Differentiating Weapon Types

Fencing is much better than Hatchet Expertise.


Reduce Pole Weapons to one memory point if you already have Ax/Mace please.
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Old 04-11-2022, 08:58 AM   #27
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Differentiating Weapon Types

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Reduce Pole Weapons to one memory point if you already have Ax/Mace please.
Done.

In my game, the POLE-ARMS talent is only one IQ for starting characters but it has a prerequisite in the form of either AXE/HAMMER or SPEAR/STAFF (both part of my revised weapon talent framework).
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Old 06-08-2022, 08:25 PM   #28
Anomylous
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Differentiating Weapon Types

I have seen a character dual-wield a fine small-axe and mace to great effect, so it's not like the Axe/Mace family is useless as it stands, anyway.

Still, I like Shostak's proposal up top that 8 or more hits before armor with an ax/mace causes knockdown/knockback. This gives that weapon family a bit more tactical versatility, and combined with the throwability of the lower-ST versions it could be quite the toolkit.

Could be expressed as: On dealing 8 or more hits with an axe/mace before armor, the wielder may choose to force a retreat (q.v. LE:ITL p118) regardless of whether they took damage that turn. (If the target took 8 or more hits *after* armor, it's moot as they'll fall anyway.)

This could potentially allow a well-armored, high-DX, battleaxe-wielding fighter to use a combination of Sweeping Blows and knockback to easily carve a path of destruction through a field of mooks, which sounds to me like a lot of very cinematic fun (though not too unbalanced, as getting to that point would take a lot of attribute points and equipment!)

TippetsTX: I like your Weapon Traits idea! Does "Sunder" negate armor?
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Old 06-09-2022, 02:32 PM   #29
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Differentiating Weapon Types

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Originally Posted by Anomylous View Post
I like your Weapon Traits idea! Does "Sunder" negate armor?
No, that refers to another house-rule I have.

See here...
https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=170337
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Old 12-08-2023, 08:14 PM   #30
JohnM
 
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Default Re: Differentiating Weapon Types

I have been looking for a way to "beef up" Ax/Mace recently as well, and ran across this old thread. I like the idea of Ax/Mace causing knock back, although I might regulate that ability strictly to great-hammers and battle-axes.

My idea is to add a certain amount of unblockable fatigue damage to each weapon (or at least to maces and hammers) that represents the impact of such a heavy weapon on the body, regardless of armor worn. A hammer might not wound you as badly as a saber (both are strength 10 weapons), but it will definitely knock the wind out of you. The fatigue still counts for rolling against unconsciousness, but can be cured by rest (ITL:LE p. 11).

I haven't quite figured out how exactly to handle this mechanically. One solution would simply be to add it to the damage description of the weapon, something like Mace - 2d-1, +1FT

Another solution could be to make an additional strength-based damage roll, similar to a barehanded attack, but applied only to fatigue. Perhaps something like:
Code:
ST       FT
10-11    1d-4
12-13    1d-3
etc.
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