Are DX and IQ overly undervalued?

[Cheeseball]

Hello.

A few days ago I published a query to which many members of this forum made very valuable contributions. After a careful reading of all of them, I have made a brief research of the 3rd edition of GURPS, and I have found several differences with the fourth edition. One of the most important is the "Language" conceptualization. In the 3rd edition, "Language" was based on IQ, while in the 4th it is an advantage.

From all of the above, I've been able to come to the following conclusion: IQ and DX stats are grossly underrated, and turning "Language" from skill to advantage was a controversial decision, not one of realism. In this sense, the 3rd edition is very descriptive where it says:

9-10: Command of the language equivalent to that of an average
native speaker. Non natives will retain a distinct foreign accent.
11-12: Command of the language equivalent to that of an educated native. Non natives will retain a slight foreign accent.
13-14: Full mastery of the language, including idioms. No foreign accent. Can adopt regional accents if desired.
15 or better: Absolute fluency. If non native, can think in the
language.

I am a firm believer that intelligence in the real world greatly affects the ability to learn new languages. In GURPS, a high IQ score allowed learning "too many" languages ​​for few points, while an average level required "too many" points to learn a few new language at a much worse level.

In addition, and this time exclusively following the lines defined by the fourth edition, I have determined that 1 attribute point doubles the previous learning capacity, following this mathematical formula:

f(x) = 2 ^ (x - 10)

where f(x) is the multiplier in the learning rate. Thus, with IQ = x:

• f(7) = 2 ^ (7 - 10) = 0.125
• f(9) = 2 ^ (9 - 10) = 0.5
• f(10) = 2 ^ (10 - 10) = 1
• f(11) = 2 ^ (11 - 10) = 2
• f(4) = 2 ^ (14 - 10) = 16

It is a mathematically elegant formula, and it is capable of representing what the designer wanted to convey, but I think that as players, some of us misunderstand it when we start playing. I think players need to be made more aware of the true meaning of attributes, as well as the meaning of each skill level.

Opinions?

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Cheeseball

I am a firm believer that intelligence in the real world greatly affects the ability to learn new languages.

Based on what?

A recent (2018) study shows there is a very weak correlation between intelligence and the ability to learn subsequent languages, and attributes other factors as being more important.

http://relp.khuisf.ac.ir/article_538...2660c3e98e.pdf

This supports earlier discussion (from 2000, references in the linked article).

As for players needing to be made aware of things, these are readily discussed in the game books at a level more than sufficient for the resolution of the game.

[Cheeseball]

Originally Posted by Farmer

Based on what?

A recent (2018) study shows there is a very weak correlation between intelligence and the ability to learn subsequent languages, and attributes other factors as being more important.

http://relp.khuisf.ac.ir/article_538...2660c3e98e.pdf

This supports earlier discussion (from 2000, references in the linked article).

As for players needing to be made aware of things, these are readily discussed in the game books at a level more than sufficient for the resolution of the game.

Right now, on the first page of your paper: http://relp.khuisf.ac.ir/article_538...2660c3e98e.pdf

The results of this research prove that intelligence is one of the important factors in acquisition of English as a foreign language

I don't know if you wanted to agree with me, because when I started reading you seemed to be trying to say the opposite.

Edit. In fact, your post has already convinced me, I'm going to use the 3rd edition system for languages. Why do you say that it is a level more than sufficient for the resolution of the game? I think that exposing the formula is much clearer.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Cheeseball

Right now, on the first page of your paper: http://relp.khuisf.ac.ir/article_538...2660c3e98e.pdf



I don't know if you wanted to agree with me, because when I started reading you seemed to be trying to say the opposite.

Edit. In fact, your post has already convinced me, I'm going to use the 3rd edition system for languages. Why do you say that it is a level more than sufficient for the resolution of the game? I think that exposing the formula is much clearer.

Did you actually read the discussion and conclusion?

The results of this study show that there is a weak positive relationship between
intelligence and foreign language achievement in general, and learning reading comprehension
and grammar in particular. That is although this relationship is found to be positive, it is very
weak. Therefore, we can conclude that although intelligence can affect foreign language
learning positively, this effect is not very strong and many other factors may affect foreign
language learning and weaken the effect of intelligence. In other words, intelligence has a role
in foreign language learning but a foreign language is not learned only by intelligence.

The results of data analysis show that there are many factors playing a role in the
acquisition of a foreign language, but probably more important than a single factor may be
combination of factors and the interplay between factors which may change according to the
circumstances

But you do you.

[Anders]

IQ is under-priced if you include Per and Will, but DX? Maybe. I think this is discussed in PU 9.

[malloyd]

The main problem with IQ and DX pricing in GURPS, and hence languages based on IQ, isn't the IQ or DX, it's the relative cost of skills. The simple truth is the time required to get good at a skill doesn't vary by orders of magnitude in humans with anything remotely like normal brain function. But because it's very rare for GURPS characters to have more than a handful of points in a skill, and because of the range of attributes relative to skill levels, it's entirely possible for characters with a plausible high attribute to pay 1 or 2 points for the same skill level as another character with plausible lower attribute will need 16 or 20 to achieve.

It's that factor of 10 gap is the problem that broke languages as skills (and challenges *everything* as skills, but it's less obvious because unlike languages there aren't any hard definitions of skill levels easily linked to real world performance levels). It's simply not possible to use the GURPS skill mechanic and have a reasonable price point for fluency in a language for people with both high and low IQ values

With some other skill mechanic, it might be different, say something where you multiplied points in a skill by IQ to determine skill level, where the range of effects of IQ would be confined to something like a factor of 2 or three, you might have a case.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Cheeseball

I am a firm believer that intelligence in the real world greatly affects the ability to learn new languages. In GURPS, a high IQ score allowed learning "too many" languages ​​for few points, while an average level required "too many" points to learn a few new language at a much worse level.

I'm not at all. I know quite a number of very intelligent people who are bad at languages, as well as those who are good at them. I don't think being good at languages is particularly linked to intelligence. OF course, GURPS' IQ stat isn't particularly linked to what we call 'being intelligent' in real life either.

[Cheeseball]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I'm not at all. I know quite a number of very intelligent people who are bad at languages, as well as those who are good at them. I don't think being good at languages is particularly linked to intelligence. OF course, GURPS' IQ stat isn't particularly linked to what we call 'being intelligent' in real life either.

Of course, it depends on whether a language for you is knowledge or not. For me it is, and since intelligence is defined as the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills, it has a very strong relation with learning and using new languages.

[Cheeseball]

Originally Posted by malloyd

But because it's very rare for GURPS characters to have more than a handful of points in a skill, and because of the range of attributes relative to skill levels, it's entirely possible for characters with a plausible high attribute to pay 1 or 2 points for the same skill level as another character with plausible lower attribute will need 16 or 20 to achieve.

I think this is a great achievement, because it differentiates very well the different capacities between an average person and a gifted person.

[Cheeseball]

Originally Posted by Anders

IQ is under-priced if you include Per and Will, but DX? Maybe. I think this is discussed in PU 9.

No, no, no, I don't want to judge whether the price in points is adequate, but because there are many players who say that an IQ of 11 is not significant, when in fact it is, and an IQ of 12 much more, since it allows you to acquire new knowledge four times faster.