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Old 08-09-2021, 04:17 AM   #1
RobW
 
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Default "Blocking" shields vs damage reduction shields

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
If we're going to continue debating different game design approaches for shields, however, we should probably start a new thread.
Good idea

I wanted to look at an alternative rule for shields, I think along the lines of what Tippets is referring to.

What happens if shields "block" attacks, rather than contributing directly to damage resistance? For example, a large shield would not stop 2 hits of damage, but would instead allow the target to make theselves harder to hit, and reduce the attacker's DX by 2.

What effects would this variant produce on combat? This is just a form of playtesting one aspect of that idea.

The graphs below simulate different attackers, against a defender with a large shield, under both regular TFT and this Blocking rule. Attackers are equipped with ST-appropriate swords.

The first graph shows expected Damage per Turn (the average amount of damage per hit times the probability of a hit). The blocking rule means that, compared to RAW, targets take somewhat more damage per turn from high DX attackers, and less from low DX ones.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ojpmeb2yf8...d_DpT.png?dl=0

The next graph shows the probability an attacker will deliver a KO blow of 8+ damage, after any shield damage reduction (although there is none for the blocking rule).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldp7w1h6z2..._KOpT.png?dl=0

The blocking rule is actually less effective than the standard rule against most attackers in preventing KO blows.

While I don't think the general pattern is surprising -- that blocking hinders low more than high DX attackers -- I was surprised to see the two rules produce largely simlar effects, at least to my eye.

If anything it seems like the blocking rule makes shields a little less effective in most circumstances. However, what these sims don't consider is the indirect effects of the DX penalty, eg acting later in the turn.

Hope that makes sense. If there are other sims you want to try let me know.

Last edited by RobW; 08-09-2021 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 08-09-2021, 04:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: "Blocking" shields vs damage reduction shields

TL;DR -- perhaps not much in it in terms of damage received
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Old 08-09-2021, 07:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: "Blocking" shields vs damage reduction shields

While the idea of shields making one harder to hit is interesting, one undesired effect would be to slow down combat somewhat by creating yet another situation that can adjust an attacker's DX, and thus their action order. Even with experienced players, the dynamic effects of DX adjustments can be hard to keep track of. It would be worse with things that players might not know, like the effect of enchanted shields that would normally stop more hits but would now adjust DX further. How would you know when your turn to act comes around? And if the GM told you, "Well, actually you don't have an adjDX of -2, it's -3 on this foe" you would now know that something is abnormal about them.
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Old 08-09-2021, 07:24 AM   #4
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Default Re: "Blocking" shields vs damage reduction shields

If no shield talent roll 5/DX, with Shield talent roll 4/DX, Shield Expertise is 3/DX

Hits stopped = (shield size times amount defender made the shield roll by) minus amount attack roll was made by.

Then allocate the blocked damage against the shield's own hits.
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Old 08-09-2021, 08:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: "Blocking" shields vs damage reduction shields

To make the statistical analysis more accurate, I should provide the specific modifiers that I currently use.

BUCKLER/MAIN-GAUCHE -1 DX to be hit
SMALL SHIELD -2 DX
LARGE SHIELD -4 DX
TOWER SHIELD -6 DX

This topic was also discussed previously in the following thread...
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=170198

P.S. @RobW I don't understand how your average damage caps out at 4 points for higher-ST attackers. Shouldn't they be using weapons appropriate for their ST... weapons that deal 2d and 3d damage?
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 08-09-2021 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: "Blocking" shields vs damage reduction shields

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
While the idea of shields making one harder to hit is interesting, one undesired effect would be to slow down combat somewhat by creating yet another situation that can adjust an attacker's DX, and thus their action order. Even with experienced players, the dynamic effects of DX adjustments can be hard to keep track of. It would be worse with things that players might not know, like the effect of enchanted shields that would normally stop more hits but would now adjust DX further. How would you know when your turn to act comes around? And if the GM told you, "Well, actually you don't have an adjDX of -2, it's -3 on this foe" you would now know that something is abnormal about them.
Shield modifiers do not alter the attacker's adjDX for the purpose of action order in my game.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 08-09-2021 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:36 AM   #7
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Default Re: "Blocking" shields vs damage reduction shields

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
P.S. @RobW I don't understand how your average damage caps out at 4 points for higher-ST attackers. Shouldn't they be using weapons appropriate for their ST... weapons that deal 2d and 3d damage?
Well spotted, now hang on....

The graph is showing average damage inflicted each turn. For a 2-handed sword (3d-1), the average damage per hit is about 9.5, but the probability of hitting is only 50%. So the average damage done each turn, before armor, is 9.5 * .5 = ~4.75. However that's only approximate because it doesn't consider 3x and 2x damage possibilities. With those in, average damage per hit before armor goes up to almost 10. In this case a large shield reduces that damage to ~8. Again, since damage is inflicted on only 50% of attacks, it works out to just about 4 damage per turn.

So yes, everyone using ST-appropriate weapons, but the graphs also consider the effects of DX (and also 3x and 2x damage)

Last edited by RobW; 08-09-2021 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:54 AM   #8
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Default Re: "Blocking" shields vs damage reduction shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
To make the statistical analysis more accurate, I should provide the specific modifiers that I currently use.
[...]
LARGE SHIELD -4 DX
OK, I created some new graphs with this -4 mod for a large shield (as opposed to -2 DX on the originals can you tell I'm on holiday). Blocking at this level looks extremely effective against this whole range of beginning fighters, compared to the standard shield rule.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ia2phxrgjg...block.png?dl=0

And the penalty is big enough to stop KO-level hits from the high-ST/low-DX fighters as well

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m4nlphr12b...block.png?dl=0

Blocking at this level seems to really weight combat towards the defender.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:55 AM   #9
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Default Re: "Blocking" shields vs damage reduction shields

The graph also assumes specific correlation between rising ST and lowering DX which would not be the case as characters progress. One my justifications for this rule change is the defensive viability of shields throughout the PCs career. DX penalties seem to scale better than 'hits stopped'.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 08-09-2021 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 08-09-2021, 10:20 AM   #10
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Default Re: "Blocking" shields vs damage reduction shields

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
Blocking at this level seems to really weight combat towards the defender.
Which I believe is the more accurate simulation even in the abstract. And even w/o the math, my players feel like a shield is a more desirable option now.

They have certainly grown to appreciate their effectiveness when they engage opponents using shields.
;)
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 08-09-2021 at 10:57 AM.
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