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Old 06-22-2020, 11:52 AM   #31
Otaku
 
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Default Re: Can you aim a gun you can't see?

Um... Weby, you're not making a lot of sense to me. Maybe I'm just being clueless again - regrettably, I know that happens too often. There are some things I'm wondering if you missed, either already stated in the thread, or which you can reality check yourself (though, maybe not directly).

The question that is the basis for this thread is "Can you aim a gun you can't see?" Maz, the person who started this thread, gave two possible reasons you couldn't see your gun:
  • Total darkness
  • Gun is invisible

I suggested awkwardly firing from behind cover as a third scenario where you couldn't see your gun. I did this because - and maybe I goofed - I understood Maz to be wanting a more generic answer. You are correct; you'll be experiencing penalties for firing from an awkward position, including firing one-handed. That isn't the same thing as not being able to aim.

Or is it the disconnect between real-world and GURPS terms messing me up? I haven't fired a lot of guns in my life, but when it comes to (real-world) aiming in general, if what I was aiming were invisible, I'd still be able to feel the item and see my target. My (real-world) aim wouldn't be as good, but taking time to feel things out and align as best I could should still improve the shot.

Oh, and having a built in sight or HUD or whatever for an Innate Attack? Seems overly complicated for explaining aiming with Innate Attacks. If the advanced rules make that a requirement... then boy, do I wish it was spelled out clearly in the Advantage. More than once, because it is an odd thing to assume. You can aim an Innate Attack, once you are "familiar" enough with it to use it with your DX-based default (let alone the actual Skill) the same way you can aim throwing a ball (or whatever else).
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Old 06-22-2020, 12:14 PM   #32
Kromm
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Default Re: Can you aim a gun you can't see?

Remember that GURPS uses the term "Aim" for a maneuver that covers actions real-world people would variously call "aiming," "pointing," "bracing," "ranging," "sighting," "acquiring," and a dozen other things. Certain parts of that have nothing to do with seeing whatever gizmos are parked on top of your weapon.

If you don't Aim first, you get no bonus at all . . . but also no penalty for not aiming, only for stuff like distance, smoke, and target size, and for being jostled because you're shooting in tight quarters or at a full-out run (Bulk). That wouldn't change one bit if your gun weren't visible to you, because you aren't bothering to use its aiming aids in the first place. You're most likely not even looking at or seeing your gun, as you're firing it by reflex, probably from the hip. So the very worst-case scenario is "no bonus."

But even if you can't see the weapon, it should help to take extra time to prepare your shot. You can still see your hands. You'll have a better idea of where your target is. You'll be assuming a better shooting posture than "my gun is wherever and I'm blazing away." All of that counts. In fact, all you'd lose is whatever part of Acc you think comes from sights, which are in essence a crutch to help you with this step.

I'd probably call iron sights good-quality equipment for aiming (+1), and actual optics fine-quality (+2) through best-quality (+TL/2) equipment for aiming; see p. B345 for terminology. So a weapon's Acc is typically at -1 or -2 if you can't use its sights, depending on what kind of sights those are.

Moreover, you'd still get the bracing bonus (+1) if you braced, because that would make your weapon more stable, and the bonus for extra seconds of Aim (+1 or +2) if you did that, because that would give you more time to do the mental calculations needed to account for target distance, movement, etc.

The big loss would be the special benefits of optics: No skill bonus for reflex or collimating sights, or computers. No extra Acc from scopes. No reduction of darkness penalties for various night-vision and improved-visibility gear. And if a weapon's Acc includes the effects of built-in optics, -2 to that instead of the -1 for just losing iron sights.
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Old 06-22-2020, 12:16 PM   #33
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Default Re: Can you aim a gun you can't see?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
Oh, and having a built in sight or HUD or whatever for an Innate Attack? Seems overly complicated for explaining aiming with Innate Attacks. If the advanced rules make that a requirement... then boy, do I wish it was spelled out clearly in the Advantage. More than once, because it is an odd thing to assume. You can aim an Innate Attack, once you are "familiar" enough with it to use it with your DX-based default (let alone the actual Skill) the same way you can aim throwing a ball (or whatever else).
I'm honestly not convinced you can aim throwing a ball. There's nothing to align, no way at all to evaluate your 'aim' until after you've attempted the throw. There is maybe a benefit to taking some extra time to consider what you're going to do, but whether that really constitutes aiming I'm unconvinced. It's certainly wildly unlike aiming a firearm, crossbow, or bow.

GURPS rules that it is all the same, of course.

However, that really doesn't carry over sensibly to Innate Attacks in general, because they can have all kinds of different accuracy values. How would that apply to throwing-like 'aiming'?
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Old 06-22-2020, 03:59 PM   #34
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Default Re: Can you aim a gun you can't see?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I'm honestly not convinced you can aim throwing a ball. There's nothing to align, no way at all to evaluate your 'aim' until after you've attempted the throw. There is maybe a benefit to taking some extra time to consider what you're going to do, but whether that really constitutes aiming I'm unconvinced. It's certainly wildly unlike aiming a firearm, crossbow, or bow.

GURPS rules that it is all the same, of course.

However, that really doesn't carry over sensibly to Innate Attacks in general, because they can have all kinds of different accuracy values. How would that apply to throwing-like 'aiming'?
I guess Innate Attack's Acc might be perceived as something other than visual alignment being represented by the maneuver, kind of like a supernatural connection to your target? Even though it's not a Malediction or a Homing...


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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
But even if you can't see the weapon, it should help to take extra time to prepare your shot. You can still see your hands.
Should there be an even steeper loss in Acc if you can't see your hands?

IE you're using Telekinesis w/o Visible, or have Invisibility advantage on.

Then there's other weird stuff some Innate Attacks might have like Overhead / Surprise Attack where you're not even doing straight lines to the target

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Moreover, you'd still get the bracing bonus (+1) if you braced, because that would make your weapon more stable, and the bonus for extra seconds of Aim (+1 or +2) if you did that, because that would give you more time to do the mental calculations needed to account for target distance, movement, etc.
Assuming that Innate Attack assumes 1-handed shots, would you allow them to brace w/ 2nd arm to get an better Acc bonus for Aiming w/ Innate Attack if you kept the 2nd hand on? Dragonball had several techniques like that (kamehameha, spirit bomb, galick gun) as an example where both palms were used for extra stability. They were less versatile than 1-handed versions like Vegeta's "Galick Beam" which only required 1 hand to aim which would leave him free to parry/punch with the other (or perform it at all if the other arm were crippled/severed)

I kinda like the idea since then it could give incentive for a superhero to drop a shield or 2nd weapon in other hand to get that, similar to doing 2-handed punches or Cross Parry.
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Old 06-22-2020, 04:43 PM   #35
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Default Re: Can you aim a gun you can't see?

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Assuming that Innate Attack assumes 1-handed shots, would you allow them to brace w/ 2nd arm to get an better Acc bonus for Aiming w/ Innate Attack if you kept the 2nd hand on?
Personally, I wouldn't normally, but something like having an extra level (or more) of Accurate when using two hands (built using Limited Enhancements, specifically Accurate with the Two-Handed Limitation from Natural Weapons) or even dealing more damage when using both hands (by putting Two-Handed as a Limitation on some of the attack's damage) would be acceptable. Of course, a GM might well rule differently; it's not that much of a price difference to go from Acc to Acc+1 when bracing with your off hand - Accurate (Two-Handed -30%) is only +3.5%, after all.
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Old 06-22-2020, 04:56 PM   #36
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Default Re: Can you aim a gun you can't see?

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it's not that much of a price difference to go from Acc to Acc+1 when bracing with your off hand - Accurate (Two-Handed -30%) is only +3.5%, after all.
Moreso for low-cost abilities due to up-rounding to nearest whole number. Maybe for those who like crunchy houserules we could just round up to nearest single decimal place so these small %s make a bigger impact in cost for abilities with small base prices.
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Old 06-22-2020, 05:45 PM   #37
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Default Re: Can you aim a gun you can't see?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Remember that GURPS uses the term "Aim" for a maneuver that covers actions real-world people would variously call "aiming," "pointing," "bracing," "ranging," "sighting," "acquiring," and a dozen other things. Certain parts of that have nothing to do with seeing whatever gizmos are parked on top of your weapon.

If you don't Aim first, you get no bonus at all . . . but also no penalty for not aiming, only for stuff like distance, smoke, and target size, and for being jostled because you're shooting in tight quarters or at a full-out run (Bulk).
I should point out this is a major change in Classic to 4e as in Classic "A Snap Shot (one made without aiming) is at a -4." But the -4 was waved if your effective skill was above the Snap Shot number.

Thankfully 4e got rid of that as it just make ranged weapons more complicated in terms of game mechanics then they needed to be.

Given most of the GURPS supplements are Classic it is something worth noting.
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