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Old 07-24-2018, 04:24 PM   #1
johndallman
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default [Tactical Shooting] Precision Aiming and Rangefinding

I've been reading the rules on Precision Aiming carefully, and there seems to be an erratum in the example on pp 26-27 of Tactical Shooting.

Ed Adamski, the shooter in the example, has Acc 6 for a Fine rifle, +3 Acc for his scope, and +3 Acc for knowing the exact range. So far, so good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Shooting, p27, end of the first paragraph
his limit for the Precision Aiming bonus is the lower of the scope bonus (+3) and the Acc bonus (+6).
OK, still good, but now we look at the "Rangefinding" box next to that paragraph, where there's a sentence that says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Shooting, p27, box "Rangefinding"
If using a scope, the +3 adds to its Acc bonus.
That seems to imply that the scope bonus becomes +6, and therefor the limit for the Precision Aiming bonus is +6. Is this right?

Last edited by johndallman; 07-25-2018 at 02:27 AM. Reason: markup
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Old 07-24-2018, 07:54 PM   #2
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: [Tactical Shooting] Precision Aiming and Rangefinding

Hi John,
So that this thread doesn't seem to be one of those "Crickets Chirping" style of things, I'll dig up my copy and see what I read from the examples versus what you are asking. ;)

Get back to you on this either later tonight or tomorrow unless someone else responds sooner than that.
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Old 07-24-2018, 08:50 PM   #3
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: [Tactical Shooting] Precision Aiming and Rangefinding

Hi John,
I went back to reread the rules as you listed them, but also took the time to read the rules regarding aim from the basic book etc.

Here (I believe) is the pertinent part of both the rules and the example given...

First, we have the limit to accuracy is equal to the LOWER of the aiming system or the weapon accuracy. For example, having a scope that grants a +4 bonus to aiming is countered by the fact that a pistol with an accuracy of 2 - limits the bonus to a +2 due to the gun barrel itself.

Secondly - we have in the example given, a whole list of things pertaining to how high a bonus our hypothetical shooter gains if he takes advantage of being prone and braced, using match grade ammo, etc. Note however, the KEY (to my mind) phrase is that the AIMING bonus can't be better than the worst of either of the aiming system or barrel. That means, that the bonus can't be better than +3, because 3 is the lower limit of either of 3 (scope) or 6 (barrel).

Note too however, that the bonus for precision aiming is always listed in terms of Accuracy +2 + bonus (See table on page 26). Normal aim bonus is at best, +2 for 3 seconds aim. Only when using precision aiming, can you exceed that limit. So - as best as I understand it, max bonus for aim bonuses (not all other items!) is Scope bonus (+3) +2 (normal aim bonus) or a maxium of +5 due to aim using precision aim techniques.

If you look at the example given? This is precisely what the example gives you.

Rereading the range finding rules carefully, doesn't suggest that knowing the precise distance gains you accuracy to the aiming system, it merely permits the use of the accuracy category as an additional bonus. It also states specifically, that if a target is within 1 yard of a pre-plotted known range, the user only gains a +1 bonus. So, firing upon someone who is 2 yards or further away from a position you know the PRECISE distance for, gains you no benefit at all (at least, that's how I'd judge it).

Recap:

Aimed for 3 seconds to gain +2 bonus to aim.
Aimed for 3 additional seconds (6 seconds total) to gain +1 (+3 total)
Aimed for additional 6 seconds (12 total) to gain +2 (+4 total)
Aimed for additional 12 seconds to gain +3 (24 seconds total) for +3 (+5 total)

Note that the shooter can't aim for any longer than the 24 seconds, even though the table or rules permit aiming for up to 90 seconds.

Now, if the GM were using the harsh realism rules for accuracy? The max effective skill that the shooter can employ (before penalties) shooting his firearm is equal to: 22 + (2*(6+2)) or 36.

With a skill 18 with rifle, and a total of +21 for his bonuses, he would be capped at 36, because his skill of 18+21 = 39.

That's my read on it and my reasoning behind it. The example does show a +3 bonus for knowing the range precisely - but it isn't an "Aiming" bonus, but a category, just like lighting would be a category, or Bracing is a category, or All Out Attack (Determined) is a category.

Hope this helps.

By the by? Had the sniper been using a x16 scope instead of a 12x scope, his scope bonus would have been 4 instead of 3. This would have permitted the sharpshooter the ability to aim for a total of 45 seconds instead of 24 for his max aim time.
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Old 07-24-2018, 09:00 PM   #4
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: [Tactical Shooting] Precision Aiming and Rangefinding

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
That seems to imply that the scope bonus becomes +6, and therefor the limit for the Precision Aiming bonus is +6. Is this right?
Well, the example clearly suggests it isn't. Why might it not be?

Aside from the theory that the example was constructed in error, which is possible, I see a pretty straightforward interpretation: the limiting scope bonus is the scope's own bonus - not the modified +acc. I'd think that makes sense - knowing the range doesn't change the limits of the optic's performance. That said I don't see anything outside the example to indicate that that is intended either.
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Old 07-25-2018, 02:25 AM   #5
johndallman
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: [Tactical Shooting] Precision Aiming and Rangefinding

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
That's my read on it and my reasoning behind it. The example does show a +3 bonus for knowing the range precisely - but it isn't an "Aiming" bonus, but a category, just like lighting would be a category, or Bracing is a category, or All Out Attack (Determined) is a category.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
... I see a pretty straightforward interpretation: the limiting scope bonus is the scope's own bonus - not the modified +acc. I'd think that makes sense - knowing the range doesn't change the limits of the optic's performance. That said I don't see anything outside the example to indicate that that is intended either.
And the "Rangefinding" box says:
Quote:
If using a scope, the +3 adds to its Acc bonus.
Which seems to be either saying that it raises the scope's own bonus, which as you point out makes little sense, or to be grouping it with the scope bonus in some category that is otherwise not explained. Something seems to be inconsistent, but it's not quite clear what.
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Old 07-25-2018, 02:56 AM   #6
johndallman
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: [Tactical Shooting] Precision Aiming and Rangefinding

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Which seems to be either saying that it raises the scope's own bonus, which as you point out makes little sense, or to be grouping it with the scope bonus in some category that is otherwise not explained.
Ah, now I remember there's a Krommpost that helps:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Here's the hierarchy of modifiers:[LIST][*]Aiming Modifiers. These apply only if you take Aim maneuvers before you attack. They fall into three basic categories:
  • Weapon's intrinsic Acc. You may always claim your weapon's full Acc bonus after a turn of Aim. Some modifiers adjust this base value for the purposes of the next category:
    • Add any bonus for fine (accurate) or very fine (accurate), or subtract any penalty for a cheap or poorly maintained weapon.
    • Apply any +1 for match-grade ammunition. The previous modifier can qualify or disqualify you for this!
    • Apply any modifier for adding a pistol stock or collapsing a folding stock.

  • Bonus Acc from any aiming aids. You may claim additional Acc from scopes, laser rangefinders (not mere targeting lasers!), or any other gear that says it increases Acc rather than skill if you Aim and meet any special conditions attached (e.g., minimum turns of Aim to claim a full scope bonus). This bonus cannot exceed the previous one. This is the only place where a limit applies!
  • Bonus Acc from the Aim maneuver itself. You may claim bonuses to Acc from two or more turns of Aim, and from bracing as part of Aim (whether on a piece of cover or using a rifle sling, a bipod, or a tripod). This is not subject to any special limit, and is in effect a skill bonus that kicks only in after you Aim.
So it seems that bonus Acc from knowing the exact range is the same as bonus Acc for a laser rangefinder, and goes in the aiming aids category, along with the scope bonus, but does not change the scope bonus. Thanks, folks.
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