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Old 08-27-2020, 04:46 PM   #41
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
This makes sense especially for GUPRS Basic, And undoubtedly the right call for 80% to 90% of games.
That being said I would love to see a supplement that gave a more granular treatment on guns that dived into their different divergent qualities and that Increase the resolution on weapon stats.
If you want better resolution, consider something like this. As noted at the beginning, it's meant for use in conjunction with Douglas Cole's (yes, the same one who posted earlier in the thread) "On Target" article from Pyramid #3/77.

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Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
Are there any rules that prevent them from being used for precision work?
Not that I'm aware of, and there really shouldn't be (unless you're specifically aiming for niche protection). As previously noted, the origins of the (in)famous .50 cal sniper rifle were in using single shots from machine guns with mounted scopes on them.
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Old 08-27-2020, 05:16 PM   #42
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
If you want better resolution, consider something like this. As noted at the beginning, it's meant for use in conjunction with Douglas Cole's (yes, the same one who posted earlier in the thread) "On Target" article from Pyramid #3/77.
I will look into that.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Not that I'm aware of, and there really shouldn't be (unless you're specifically aiming for niche protection). As previously noted, the origins of the (in)famous .50 cal sniper rifle were in using single shots from machine guns with mounted scopes on them.
The M2 is an inherently more accurate system than the FN Minimi, as it fires from a close bolt rather than an open bolt. The M2 Is also a heavy machine gun fired from a fixed tripod rather than a light machine gun fired from a Deployable bipod. M249 is a 12 MoA gun, I could not find any direct numbers for the M2, the M82A1 Which as you have said it was inspired by the M2 is a 3 MoA gun bumped up to 1 MoA with match grade ammunition.
So I find it hard to believe that the FN Minimi Has the same base accuracy as the Remington 700.
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Old 08-27-2020, 06:49 PM   #43
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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From all accounts that I can find the M249 is a 12 MoA gun whereas a bone stock Remington 700 is a 3 to 1 MoA, this is something that I have personal experience with having done some of my best shooting on one, by no stretch of the imagination am I a good shot but I was able to group at 2 1/2 MoA on a good day.
The M249 inaccuracy is one of the main driving causes of the M 27 IAR.
12MOA is still fine for what a LMG is intended for. However, the licensed Canadian-made C9 version of the FN MINIMI I used was much better than 12MOA. One on our stunts was to put a line of balloons up at 100m on the range and see how few shots you could 'kill' half a dozen balloon with. Many of us could manage one shot per balloon, even with the distraction of managing a single-shot out of a full-auto weapon. As the balloons would be moving a little in the wind and aren't 12MOA in every dimension, that's a better than 12MOA weapon right there.

Now, this is why I specified a near-new gun - machineguns wear rapidly, and many types lose accuracy quickly with age, because it's not something the designer prioritise very much.
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Old 08-27-2020, 07:08 PM   #44
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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12MOA is still fine for what a LMG is intended for. However, the licensed Canadian-made C9 version of the FN MINIMI I used was much better than 12MOA. One on our stunts was to put a line of balloons up at 100m on the range and see how few shots you could 'kill' half a dozen balloon with. Many of us could manage one shot per balloon, even with the distraction of managing a single-shot out of a full-auto weapon. As the balloons would be moving a little in the wind and aren't 12MOA in every dimension, that's a better than 12MOA weapon right there.

Now, this is why I specified a near-new gun - machineguns wear rapidly, and many types lose accuracy quickly with age, because it's not something the designer prioritise very much.
I'm not saying that 12 MoA is bad for a light machine gun I'm just saying it's not the same as the Remington 700.
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Old 08-27-2020, 09:09 PM   #45
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
In almost all cases, Acc is simply assigned based on broad weapon type.
And to add to this, breakpoints are necessary to divide the groups. It may be in your game you change the breakpoints, or give certain types of weapons a bonus or penalty. That's fine. Do it your way. It won't break anything. The official stats are derived form author's and playtesters eyeballing things for consistency's sake and that's about it. Word count limits also keep writers from discussing every single factor in every single situation at length.

If you want bolt actions to get a bonus, or full-auto to get a penalty, just make it situational. Douglas Cole mentioned the minute of angle rule, which helps. But there is nothing wrong with a house rule such as "bolt actions get a +1 when aiming" or "full-auto weapons can never get more than base Acc +2 from aiming" or whatever. I personally would limit the bonuses or penalties to a +1/-1, just to keep things reasonable and easy to remember.
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Last edited by safisher; 08-27-2020 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 08-27-2020, 09:49 PM   #46
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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I personally would limit the bonuses or penalties to a +1/-1, just to keep things reasonable and easy to remember.
Thanks, that's some really good advice.
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Old 08-27-2020, 09:55 PM   #47
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

Other thing to consider is a bolt-action rifle can more practically take advantage of match-grade ammo, giving at least +1 to Acc. You could theoretically fire match grade out of an LMG but it would be horribly expensive, and the Rcl penalty would mean every bullet after the first mostly flushes that +1 Acc down the toilet.
Then there's the Precision Aiming technique, which I'd probably disallow, or at least apply a steep penalty to utilize on an LMG, but wouldn't penalize at all on a proper rifle platform. That gives you WAY more accuracy, given a little extra time.
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Old 08-27-2020, 10:23 PM   #48
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by Kale View Post
Other thing to consider is a bolt-action rifle can more practically take advantage of match-grade ammo, giving at least +1 to Acc. You could theoretically fire match grade out of an LMG but it would be horribly expensive, and the Rcl penalty would mean every bullet after the first mostly flushes that +1 Acc down the toilet.
Then there's the Precision Aiming technique, which I'd probably disallow, or at least apply a steep penalty to utilize on an LMG, but wouldn't penalize at all on a proper rifle platform. That gives you WAY more accuracy, given a little extra time.
Some excellent points on rifles versus MGs. Does not just have to be addressed with the ACC.
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Old 08-28-2020, 12:54 AM   #49
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

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Originally Posted by solidsingularity View Post
I'm not saying that 12 MoA is bad for a light machine gun I'm just saying it's not the same as the Remington 700.
It would be interesting to have a single-shot trial :

a brand new MINIMI firing match-grade ammo after a thorough servicing and fine-tuning
vs
a Remington 700 firing bulk ammo after firing a couple thousands round, standard field cleaning only.

I am certain that *all other things being equals*, the Remington is more precise than the Minimi,
but I also believe that the difference is much increased by the fact that everything else is rarely equal.

Also, on the rifle vs LMG accuracy,
the LMG acc includes the (bi/tri)pod, the rifle doesn't. So that's another +1 for the rifle if braced.

Last edited by Celjabba; 08-28-2020 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 08-28-2020, 01:32 AM   #50
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Default Re: [Guns] What does accuracy represent?

One reason MGs need a reasonable Acc stat is that the bonus to hit from rapid fire is not very high, so unless you're using your MG for Suppressive Fire only, you need one with reasonable accuracy (well, unless you're one of those godling PCs with Guns (LMG) or Gunner (Machinegun) at 25+).

One reason for this is that Rapid Fire, with its bonus to hit and its ability to land multiple hits is actually doing two things at once - trying to put lots of bullets into the same target and spread the bullets out to increase the odds of hitting that target.

Therefore, one way to reflect low Acc machineguns without doing horrible things to their hit chances would to do something like this:

Calculate the 'to hit' bonus from their maximum rate of fire.

Reduce Acc by the Rapid Fire to hit bonus (or possibly just use a flat -2 Acc adjustment).

Allow the user to declare that they're going to 'spread fire', which doubles the RoF bonus, but also doubles recoil.

One issue with this is whether assault rifles and PDWs should be allowed this, as we can't reasonably reduce their Acc, so it's a simple bonus to them. Another is very high RoF guns.
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