Using GURPS for Star Trek TNG (no Prime Directive)

[Inky]

I've seen some people suggest that the arrangement in the Federation (at least on the richer planets like Earth - some of the outlying colony worlds don't seem to be at all post-scarcity) is that there's some kind of universal-basic-income system where everyone gets an amount of credits and/or replicator watt-hours for free, and earning money comes into play only if they want more than that. If so, it looks as if the amount is enough to live on in fairly lavish style, but not enough to buy a starship. In GURPS terms this might be Independent Income of some sort, although by RAW Independent Income is calculated as a percentage of Starting Wealth rather than a flat rate.

And yes, Starting Wealth may still work correctly in such a society, just as an abstract measure of how much in the way of goods is available to a starting character, even if it doesn't correspond to a currency. And that would still be dependent on TL if how abundant various goods were was a function of how advanced the technology was. (You might need to be ingenious about what Wealth Levels and so on actually represented in a Star Trek game, though. Those outlying colony worlds may be the same TL as Earth in terms of the most advanced technology they have, but not have as many resources available per person).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

What income level? The Federation doesn't use money as Picard is so often fond of saying. /s

Yes, I call Picard on that claim as well (even in TNG it is contradicted and certainly wasn't true in TOS) but post scarcity civilizations by their very nature mess up the GURPS income levels horribly.

Each of your examples have superscience issues.

*Considering blasters (and phasers) seem to work equally well in and out of a vacuum and are visible in both they are superscience.
*Force fields are a superscience device (Ultra-Tech 190)d)

Yes they are. And on page 190 Ultra-Tech describes them as TL 11^. Which is why I described them as TL 11 by default. Same thing with Omni-Blasters.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I would say that "post scarcity" as such is a superscience idea.

In any case, the Federation is not post scarcity, not even in Picard's time. They don't provide individuals with unlimited access to resources; for example, private individuals can't requisition starships equivalent to the Enterprise, or terraform planets to occupy as their private estates.

As Issac Arthur explains post scarcity does not necessarily translate to unlimited access. In fact, in a finite universe it is impossible for a unlimited access post scarcity civilization to exist — "There will some scarcity of some things all the time". So to have one in our universe he comes up with the following"

Post scarcity civilization traits (using Maslow's hierarchy of needs)
1) Abundant Wealth & Resources
2) Abundant Safety & Security
3) Abundant, Honest Information
4) Large, Diverse Social Pool
5) Sense of Purpose
6) Minimal Coercion?

Tech that would likely occur
1) Virtual Reality
2) Nuclear Fusion or Equivalent
3) Heavy Robotization & Automation
4) High-Bandwidth Communication
5) Nanotechnology
6) Self-repairing Structures

Given Star Trek's safe-tech the last two being underdeveloped doesn't mean it isn't post scarcity.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Yes they are. And on page 190 Ultra-Tech describes them as TL 11^. Which is why I described them as TL 11 by default. Same thing with Omni-Blasters.

The problem is any TL connected to the "^" is arbitrary (Basic Set 513-514) and Ultra tech itself states all the numbers with the TL do is provide a "ready-to-use catalog and provide handy guidelines for gadgeteering".

Bio-tech seemed to have realized that having any number with the "^" as a majorly bad idea going as far as to say "Don’t feel bound by tech levels."

[Kallatari]

Probably stating the obvious, but you can use GURPS Template Toolkit 3 - Starship Crew for character templates, as they have all the "niche" roles you find the Star Trek covered. Granted, it doesn't cover things like "Starfleet Academy Training", etc., but regarding skills the characters should have for their role on the ship, the templates work.

Also, on the last page (p.11), it provides an Omnicompetent lense (+50 points) as a method of dealing with characters who are cross-trained at everything using a combination of Jack of All Trades and Wild Talent. I think Wild Talent is a nice alternative to Wildcard Skills in that while anyone can do anything, they can only do so a limited number of times in a given scene. This means some things will still remain a challenge, and likewise makes it better if the person with that role in question does the task using their actual skill rather than someone else using up their Wild Talent use, so it keeps some level of challenge that everyone having Wildcard Skills wouldn't have. Not saying it's better - Wildcards do work, and I've used them - just saying it's another option.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

The problem is any TL connected to the "^" is arbitrary (Basic Set 513-514) and Ultra tech itself states all the numbers with the TL do is provide a "ready-to-use catalog and provide handy guidelines for gadgeteering".

I do not see that as a problem. A ready to use catalog is convenient. It's certainly true you can add a forcefield to your 5+1 steampunk setting, or have a faux Roman empire with flying boats but Star Trek is nothing that outre and the TL 11^ in Spaceships and Ultra-tech matches Star Trek quite well except for transporters.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I do not see that as a problem. A ready to use catalog is convenient. It's certainly true you can add a forcefield to your 5+1 steampunk setting, or have a faux Roman empire with flying boats but Star Trek is nothing that outre and the TL 11^ in Spaceships and Ultra-tech matches Star Trek quite well except for transporters.

It is kind of a non sequitur that the number assigned "^" is arbitrary but somehow such tech also has a "default" TL for the purpose of a 'ready to use catalog'. If the "^" has a default then it isn't arbitrary.

That in a nutshell is the problem.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by maximara

As Issac Arthur explains post scarcity does not necessarily translate to unlimited access. In fact, in a finite universe it is impossible for a unlimited access post scarcity civilization to exist — "There will some scarcity of some things all the time". So to have one in our universe he comes up with the following"

Post scarcity civilization traits (using Maslow's hierarchy of needs)
1) Abundant Wealth & Resources
2) Abundant Safety & Security
3) Abundant, Honest Information
4) Large, Diverse Social Pool
5) Sense of Purpose
6) Minimal Coercion?

On one hand, that's fine if you don't mind using the word "scarcity" in a way that is incompatible with its technical meaning in economic theory.

But on the other hand, by comparison with the standards of virtually all of human history, the United States in, say, 1960 means every single one of those standards. So it can be considered a post scarcity society. And yet it still had a market economy and used money.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by whswhs

On one hand, that's fine if you don't mind using the word "scarcity" in a way that is incompatible with its technical meaning in economic theory.

But on the other hand, by comparison with the standards of virtually all of human history, the United States in, say, 1960 means every single one of those standards. So it can be considered a post scarcity society. And yet it still had a market economy and used money.

Uh the United States 1960s seems to fail in
2) Abundant Safety & Security; yeh 1963 was really safe and secure /2
3) Abundant, Honest Information; the quizshow scandal of the 1950s had thrown that into the dumpster — why do you think so many people thought the government was lying to the am how JFK died in 1963?
4) Large, Diverse Social Pool. Conformity was still the order of the day.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by maximara

Uh the United States 1960s seems to fail in
2) Abundant Safety & Security; yeh 1963 was really safe and secure /2
3) Abundant, Honest Information; the quizshow scandal of the 1950s had thrown that into the dumpster — why do you think so many people thought the government was lying to the am how JFK died in 1963?
4) Large, Diverse Social Pool. Conformity was still the order of the day.

Your perspective is too narrow. Contrast the United States then with virtually the entirety of world history. Of course you can say that it only counts if there are no points at all where it fails to reach some notional ideal state; but if you're going to do that, I can equally fairly say that a hypothetical society is not post-scarcity if there are any resources that are limited with respect to potential wants and uses.

I expect that I could find points where the Federation of ST:TNG fell short of every one of your notional criteria. In fact such points were often departures for dramatic plots on ST:TNG episodes.

You can either use an impressionistic, handwavy definition of "postscarcity," one that leaves you free to include some cases and exclude others without exact criteria; or use a rigorous logical definition, and recognize that no society or civilization can ever be "postscarcity." That is, you can approach the matter either rhetorically or dialectically.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by whswhs

You can either use an impressionistic, handwavy definition of "postscarcity," one that leaves you free to include some cases and exclude others without exact criteria; or use a rigorous logical definition, and recognize that no society or civilization can ever be "postscarcity." That is, you can approach the matter either rhetorically or dialectically.

You could argue Homeline since it has access to a potentially infinite number of worlds that don't have human or anything else (mad god of the week) that makes resource gathering an non issue "post scarcity" is effectively a given. They aren't quite to K1 equivalent yet but they are getting there at a good clip.