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Old 02-02-2020, 01:48 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default pricing breakdown "Psionic" power modifier w/ insubstantiality

B102 mentions "Do not add this enhancement to magical or psi abilities; these
can already affect the substantial world at -3"

P20 under Anti-Powers "If both situations apply, add -10% to the power modifier. This is the case for psionic powers"

If the current total value of the power modifier is because of power countermeasures / tech countermeasures, then is the lack of need to buy 'affects substantial' enhancement some kind of freebie?

"Hard to Use 1" (for -3 to rolls) is a -5% modifier, so using Limited Enhancements, that reduces the relative value of "Affects Substantial" from +40% to +38%, but it's still quite the freebie on abilities which it pertains to.

It's also not applicable to some abilities like Regeneration/Regrowth/Resistance (Psychic Healing -10%)

So... has anyone done it where you actually DO need to purchase 'Affects Substantial' on psionic powers?
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Old 02-02-2020, 02:57 PM   #2
DangerousThing
 
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Default Re: pricing breakdown "Psionic" power modifier w/ insubstantiality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
So... has anyone done it where you actually DO need to purchase 'Affects Substantial' on psionic powers?
And don't forget the reverse, Affects Insubstantial.

The game I'm preparing, a TL 11 and lower science fantasy will have psionic powers and magic (Sorcery or realm magic, I'm still thinking).

Most magics will not be able to affect insubstantial beings, unless they are something like telepathy. Even telepathy will be far weaker if it has to cross that boundry. On the other hand, the spirits will have the same disadvantage.

Physical magics and psionics will require an Affects Insubstantial or cosmic modifier to effect a spirit. Not that I really think that spirits will play a huge part in my game. Unless they go to Space Station Three. :)
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Old 02-03-2020, 08:32 AM   #3
Plane
 
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Default Re: pricing breakdown "Psionic" power modifier w/ insubstantiality

I'm wondering if this might be remnant of 3e where psionics were a separate kind of thing from powers, like magic is (was? sorcery blurs lines)
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Old 02-03-2020, 06:48 PM   #4
Not another shrubbery
 
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Default Re: pricing breakdown "Psionic" power modifier w/ insubstantiality

Affects Substantial only applies if you have some version of Insub. If you have that, and psionics, then the Insub. will need AffSub, but the psionics don't, as per Basic.It's a free (but limited) enhancement, as you suggest. Part of the reason is presumably the big premium you're paying for Insub. itself. As usual with that combination, the GM must take care that it does not overly favor the PC with such a build.

Last edited by Not another shrubbery; 02-04-2020 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 02-04-2020, 04:08 PM   #5
Plane
 
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Default Re: pricing breakdown "Psionic" power modifier w/ insubstantiality

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
It's a free (but limited) enhancement, as you suggest.
Part of the reason is presumably the big premium you're paying for Insub. itself.
You have to pay that premium to use other non-psionic non-magic abilities on substantial creatures though...

Just like you would need to buy that enhancement for non-psionic / non-magic innate attacks / afflictions and so on.

Then of course there's Malediction which sort of has that built-in too...

A lot of psychic powers are designed as Maledictions (sorcery too) so I'm wondering if maybe that's what's intended?

Then there's the weirdness where in theory you'd need to apply "Insubstantial Only" to have a Malediction which excludes substantial foes, but the pricing of "Insubstantial Only" seems to have "Affects Insubstantial" built into it?
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Old 02-04-2020, 04:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: pricing breakdown "Psionic" power modifier w/ insubstantiality

If you have Insubstantial with Affects Substantial you can use certain abilities at -3 without needing Affects Substantial on them. However you can add that modifier to remove the -3 penalty.
I believe this is explained in Psionic Powers.
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Old 02-05-2020, 05:11 AM   #7
Not another shrubbery
 
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Default Re: pricing breakdown "Psionic" power modifier w/ insubstantiality

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
You have to pay that premium to use other non-psionic non-magic abilities on substantial creatures though...

Just like you would need to buy that enhancement for non-psionic / non-magic innate attacks / afflictions and so on.
Yes, but they wouldn't have the -3 malus, nor would they have the other specifics that would go with the Psionic Power Modifier. You typically wouldn't place Affects Substantial on a PowMod, because not only will it not make sense with every psionic ability, it *only* makes sense if you have Insub. That makes it seem like the issue is just with the way magic and psionics get a weak version for free. I doubt the game will change much if someone decided to do away with that built-in enhancement and forced characters to purchase AffSub on their relevant abilities, other than making some players more careful with their points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
If you have Insubstantial with Affects Substantial you can use certain abilities at -3 without needing Affects Substantial on them. However you can add that modifier to remove the -3 penalty.
I believe this is explained in Psionic Powers.
That does ring a bell, but I looked through my copy last night and couldn't find it. Do you have a pageref?
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Old 02-05-2020, 01:09 PM   #8
Plane
 
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Default Re: pricing breakdown "Psionic" power modifier w/ insubstantiality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
If you have Insubstantial with Affects Substantial you can use certain abilities at -3 without needing Affects Substantial on them.

However you can add that modifier to remove the -3 penalty.

I believe this is explained in Psionic Powers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
That does ring a bell, but I looked through my copy last night and couldn't find it.

Do you have a pageref?
My best guess is page 14-15, it mentions: "They take the standard -3 to skill unless they have the Affects Substantial (+40%) modifier."

This is in respect to mental communication abilities (explaining how it works with "Substantial Communication", a cheaper enhancement for Insubstantiality.

It does seem to imply something of a different impression I got from basic set, where I thought you had to buy enhanced Insubstantiality, enhanced communication, and STILL suffered a -3 penalty.

PP seems to give idea (at least for communication) of "-3 if you lack enhanced abilities, -0 if they're enhanced" rather than "-3 always, buying the enhancement for magic/psi is pointless" which I'd assumed.

Seems like a pointless investment though... why would you pay +40% to avoid a -3 penalty when you could buy 3 levels of Reliable for +15%? I could only see doing this if you had already maxed out the Reliable enhancement.
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Old 02-05-2020, 02:09 PM   #9
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Default Re: pricing breakdown "Psionic" power modifier w/ insubstantiality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post

It does seem to imply something of a different impression I got from basic set, where I thought you had to buy enhanced Insubstantiality, enhanced communication, and STILL suffered a -3 penalty.

PP seems to give idea (at least for communication) of "-3 if you lack enhanced abilities, -0 if they're enhanced" rather than "-3 always, buying the enhancement for magic/psi is pointless" which I'd assumed.
.
Your impression from the Basic set was mostly correct, I think your reading PP wrong though.


I discussed this with both PK and Kromm. What people tend to forget or overlook is that Affects Substantial is required on Insubstantial to use spells and powers, even at the -3.
The reason for that is this line in Insubstantiality. p. B63.
Your psi abilities and magic spells can affect the physical world, but at -3 to all skill rolls.

However if you keep reading you will see under the modifier...
See p. B63. Affect Substantial: If you have any abilities that can affect the substantial world when you are insubstantial – including magic, psionics, or powers with the Affects Substantial enhancement (p. 102) – this advantage costs more. +100%.
In the text the word any is italicized for emphasis so I bolded it here in my quote.

Supporting info if more is desred...
Look at the Insubstantiality advantage on p. 14 of Psionic Powers.
The GM may rule that spirits and astral entities (Spirit, p. B263) have the Substantial Communication enhancement, below, on their Insubstantiality instead of Affects Substantial. This reduces the cost of the meta-trait by 48 points and limits them to what astral projectors can do.

Also the line under the new modifier which says...
This is a weaker version of Affects Substantial (+100%). You can use any of your mental abilities (psi, magic, etc.) to communicate with the real world.
They take the standard -3 to skill unless they have the Affects Substantial (+40%) modifier.


The new modifier is a cheaper modifier to Insubstantialty, not applied to powers you use while Insubstantial but to the Insubstantial advantage itself. Any other powers just use the normal Affects Substantial rather than the higher priced one specifically for the Insubstantialty advantage.

The Spirit Metatrait P. B263 has the full Affects Substantial, +100% and says it can use its powers where Astral Entity which does not have the modifier is specifically saying it cannot use its Supernatural powers on the world.

Summary
So the +100% Affects Substantial lets you use powers with the right special effect on the world at a -3 penalty and the Substantial Communication, +40% is simply a more limited version that only allows communication powers.
In either case, if you want to buy off the -3 penalty add Affects Substantial to the specific power . However your base Insubstantiality power has to have one of the two modifiers above.
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Old 02-05-2020, 03:53 PM   #10
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: pricing breakdown "Psionic" power modifier w/ insubstantiality

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
In either case, if you want to buy off the -3 penalty add Affects Substantial to the specific power
If you already can affect at -3 without it, why not just buy Reliable 4 +20% for half the cost and +4 to the roll?
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