how would you tweak sacrificial dodge/parry to pull them of ranged attack's path?

[Plane]

Like what the lizard does with her tongue to save girl here: https://youtu.be/4UjIdSQMqhM

B375's Sacrificial Dodge is about interposition (you don't actually contact the ally you're protecting) whereas B377's "Sacrificial Dodge and Drop" seems to imply your dodge creates contact since "If you succeed, you both fall prone"

In this case though, unlike a usual SDAD, I want neither party to actually take the hit. The sacrificial dodging, rather than jumping atop the ally as a shield, I just want to grab the ally and yank them out of the way.

- -

Also interesting in vid is you can see the human target commits to an active defense (holds up forearm to shield face, probably like a parry or improvised block?) which ultimately wasn't needed due to being yanked out of the way.

That differs from the usual GURPS order of "sacrificial defense" resolution, which rolls the sacrifice to see if it works first before determining in the original target needs to defend.

All of this probably happens too quickly in most cases to metagame like that.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Plane

In this case though, unlike a usual SDAD, I want neither party to actually take the hit. The sacrificial dodging, rather than jumping atop the ally as a shield, I just want to grab the ally and yank them out of the way.

This is applicable to a lot of situations, not just pulling people out of the way of falling giant snowballs, but also yanking people back from traps just before they spring, grabbing people before they go over the edge of a cliff, keeping children or pets from running into traffic, etc.

Here's my take:

All Out Defense (Sacrificial Grapple)

Start with a Grapple attempt followed by an attempt to lift or drag the rescued character using ST. If the target you're trying to rescue is in motion or doesn't want to be rescued roll a QC of ST, otherwise roll vs. your ST.

An actual lift like the lizard does requires the person you're trying to rescue to be within your BL, but you can use Extra Effort to temporarily boost your ST. If you're just pulling the character back that's effectively a "shove or knock over" allowing you to move up to BL x 12.

If you make both your Grappling roll and your ST roll, then you can substitute your own Dodge (less your effective Encumbrance for the weight of the other character) for the other character's Dodge.

You can also drag your target in the direction you're grappling from by up to 1 yard, giving them a +3 bonus for Retreating. If you can lift the other character you can move them in any direction up to the Reach of your grappling limb. For example, the lizard uses its tongue to grapple and move its target by approximately 2 hexes. This doesn't give any extra bonuses but might move the victim out of the way of an area effect attack.

Alternately, you can give the other character a +4 bonus to DX or a suitable DX-based skill roll to avoid falling, sliding, etc. If you can lift them, they succeed automatically.

You don't get a Dodge since you've "donated" it to the other person.

Defensive Attack (Sacrificial Grapple) works the same way, but you have a -2 penalty to Grapple, a -20% penalty to your ST, and both you and the person you're rescuing have a penalty to Dodge based on your Encumbrance penalty.

You get a +4 bonus to either maneuver if you've previously grappled the other character (i.e., you grab their arm to steady them) or if you're in mental contact with them as they start to fall, slide, etc.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

All Out Defense (Sacrificial Grapple)

Start with a Grapple attempt followed by an attempt to lift or drag the rescued character using ST. If the target you're trying to rescue is in motion or doesn't want to be rescued roll a QC of ST, otherwise roll vs. your ST.

One complication about the AOD approach is that you'd need to know ahead of time there was yanking to be done to actually choose that maneuver and maneur-variant.

Do you think it's something we could just make a defense option, like maybe at a baseline penalty of -2 since +2 is essentially the (Determined) benefit of All-Out Defense?

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

An actual lift like the lizard does requires the person you're trying to rescue to be within your BL, but you can use Extra Effort to temporarily boost your ST. If you're just pulling the character back that's effectively a "shove or knock over" allowing you to move up to BL x 12.

Actually looked like she was just horizontally dragged by the ankle rather than lifted.

It was on ice too so there'd be less friction to overcome, do you think ice would increase BL multiplier for shoving/pulling ?

You actually highlighted an interesting point too... we have a BLx12 for shoves when done w/ Ready Maneuvers whereas the "attack" Shove does a thrust-based rule based on ST/HP multiples of the foe.

Ideally the mass we can shove (and the distance we shove it) might consistently depend on the literal weight or the HP-as-weight (or ST if higher) substitte, but I'm not sure how to unify it.

I always figured under Basic rules that if you had a grapple you could specify a shove as a "yank" and apply your "knockback" in directions other than directly away from you, but the RAW way to do stuff like that might actually be the 'Shoving People Around' rules introduced in Martial Arts which ignore thrust "damage" (and also ignore BL) and instead deal with a Quick Contest.

So now we actually have THREE sets of rules on shoving capacities =/

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

If you make both your Grappling roll and your ST roll, then you can substitute your own Dodge (less your effective Encumbrance for the weight of the other character) for the other character's Dodge.

You can also drag your target in the direction you're grappling from by up to 1 yard, giving them a +3 bonus for Retreating. If you can lift the other character you can move them in any direction up to the Reach of your grappling limb. For example, the lizard uses its tongue to grapple and move its target by approximately 2 hexes. This doesn't give any extra bonuses but might move the victim out of the way of an area effect attack.

Do you think this would overlap with MA132's Proxy Fighting rules?

Something like "slap another person into his foe, his proxy must be within his reach and his intended target must be within his proxy’s reach" seems like it could also relate to relocating people entirely even if it seems like it's just talking about using limbs.

Interesting thing about that is it seems to ignore hit location and size modifier penalties of your intended target, since the only roll you actually make is to hit the proxy.

Seems like maybe there ought to be a 2nd strike roll here, like the 1st roll is jsut to see if you can make the attack in the first place, not finalize it.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Alternately, you can give the other character a +4 bonus to DX or a suitable DX-based skill roll to avoid falling, sliding, etc. If you can lift them, they succeed automatically.

If we were using Technical Grappling rules I could see maybe sacrificing Control Points to help on those balance checks?

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Defensive Attack (Sacrificial Grapple) works the same way, but you have a -2 penalty to Grapple, a -20% penalty to your ST, and both you and the person you're rescuing have a penalty to Dodge based on your Encumbrance penalty.

You get a +4 bonus to either maneuver if you've previously grappled the other character (i.e., you grab their arm to steady them) or if you're in mental contact with them as they start to fall, slide, etc.

Are you thinking here you're making a low ST attack on enemy while keeping aware enough to defend your ally?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Plane

Like what the lizard does with her tongue to save girl here: https://youtu.be/4UjIdSQMqhM

B375's Sacrificial Dodge is about interposition (you don't actually contact the ally you're protecting) whereas B377's "Sacrificial Dodge and Drop" seems to imply your dodge creates contact since "If you succeed, you both fall prone"

In this case though, unlike a usual SDAD, I want neither party to actually take the hit. The sacrificial dodging, rather than jumping atop the ally as a shield, I just want to grab the ally and yank them out of the way.

- -

Also interesting in vid is you can see the human target commits to an active defense (holds up forearm to shield face, probably like a parry or improvised block?) which ultimately wasn't needed due to being yanked out of the way.

That differs from the usual GURPS order of "sacrificial defense" resolution, which rolls the sacrifice to see if it works first before determining in the original target needs to defend.

All of this probably happens too quickly in most cases to metagame like that.

This seems like a case of not calling it what it is.

We'll call the lizard's tongue a whip, though it could be a lariat or kusari, and it would work just as well.

What we see is the girl being attacked (without defending against), an entangling attack. It didn't take her down as she was already prone but it did effectively pin her, and the lizard then dragged the pinned character. Call it an All-Out Attack (Double) where the first attack pins and the second attack drags.

That it pulled her out of the way of the snowball is nice, but not relevant to what it is, i.e., it doesn't make the All-Out Attack (Double) some sort of Sacrificial Parry or Sacrificial Dodge and Drop.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Plane

Like what the lizard does with her tongue to save girl here: https://youtu.be/4UjIdSQMqhM

B375's Sacrificial Dodge is about interposition (you don't actually contact the ally you're protecting) whereas B377's "Sacrificial Dodge and Drop" seems to imply your dodge creates contact since "If you succeed, you both fall prone"

That's by definition, not a sacrificial dodge then.
It's sacrificial because you sacrifice yourself in their place.
Also, I'd note the frog doesn't do any sort of dodging, so it's not any sort of dodge.

In this case though, unlike a usual SDAD, I want neither party to actually take the hit. The sacrificial dodging, rather than jumping atop the ally as a shield, I just want to grab the ally and yank them out of the way.

I would suggest you NOT look at sacrificial dodge & Instead look at something like the block from shield-wall training gives (MA.p51).
You are looking for an ability or technique to parry, block or dodge for another character.

Also interesting in vid is you can see the human target commits to an active defense (holds up forearm to shield face, probably like a parry or improvised block?) which ultimately wasn't needed due to being yanked out of the way.

That differs from the usual GURPS order of "sacrificial defense" resolution, which rolls the sacrifice to see if it works first before determining in the original target needs to defend.

All of this probably happens too quickly in most cases to metagame like that.

What I see in the video is:
1) The girl running & dodging. She fails a DX roll on the ice (it's not a critfail on a dodge 'cause if it was she would have been hit).
2) She sees an incoming attack & rases her arm as an all-out defense for her turn (instead of trying to move).
3) On it's turn the frog uses it's tongue to grapple the girl & pull her to safty.

[Aldric]

My 3) would have been:
The frog (that looks a lot like a chameleon) takes a wait and prepares to take the girl out of trouble if she can't manage to get up and move out of the way

[Varyon]

This falls into the general theme of "acting out of turn." One option, as others have noted, is to use a Wait - but in fiction this typically isn't a case of "I know something bad's going to happen, so I'll push/pull my ally out of danger if it does," but rather "Oh crap, something bad is happening right now, so I'll push/pull my ally out of danger." It's something that works well in fiction (and is doable in reality), but doesn't really work for anything turn-based - the sort of action involved is more akin to an attack than a defense in terms of how long it takes.

To get something like this, you'd arguably need a generic rule that lets you take your turn early. This is generally going to involve needing to use your skill at a penalty - probably -4, meaning you can do it at no net penalty if you go All Out (to cover cases like ranged attacks, where All Out only gives a +1 or +2, it might be appropriate to simply have All Out (Out of Turn), which negates the penalty for acting out of turn). It would also mean that when your next turn comes around... you don't get one, because you took it early. Things like iteration penalties for multiple Parries would be a little complicated, but not too terrible - I'd say any penalties up to when you take the early turn persist until your turn should have come around, and any penalties you take after the early turn simply last until the next time you actually get a turn.

Once you've got that, for the use case of getting an ally out of danger, you use the above rules, but use the lower of your attack roll (at -4 for acting out of turn) and what your Parry would be with that skill (maybe Parry at a penalty, like for Aggressive Parry) to determine if you manage to push/pull your ally out of danger. In case it matters, if your roll would have succeeded at the attack but failed at the Parry, you manage to push/pull your ally out of danger too late to avoid the hit. If your roll would have succeeded at the Parry but failed at the attack, you managed to act quickly enough, but missed grabbing/shoving your ally. In theory you could do two separate rolls here, but I think that might make it a bit too difficult.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

This seems like a case of not calling it what it is.

We'll call the lizard's tongue a whip, though it could be a lariat or kusari, and it would work just as well.

What we see is the girl being attacked (without defending against), an entangling attack. It didn't take her down as she was already prone but it did effectively pin her, and the lizard then dragged the pinned character. Call it an All-Out Attack (Double) where the first attack pins and the second attack drags.

That it pulled her out of the way of the snowball is nice, but not relevant to what it is, i.e., it doesn't make the All-Out Attack (Double) some sort of Sacrificial Parry or Sacrificial Dodge and Drop.

Basically wondering on ways we could make it work like "using a defense gives you an attack" like w/ aggressive parry or interdiction, so that you could use it during the enemy's turn to prevent them attacking your ally, like w/ sacrificial parry.

Originally Posted by Tinman

What I see in the video is:
1) The girl running & dodging. She fails a DX roll on the ice (it's not a critfail on a dodge 'cause if it was she would have been hit).
2) She sees an incoming attack & rases her arm as an all-out defense for her turn (instead of trying to move).
3) On it's turn the frog uses it's tongue to grapple the girl & pull her to safty.

I think it only works if there's a "travel time delay" for incoming attacks though, if we are using the normal "it arrives the turn it leaves" we need something other than an attack maneuver to cover the ally-yank defense.

All-Out Defense allows you 1/2 movement points so I don't think it explains the lack of moving.

I think it's moreso that when you're in a Sitting posture, perhaps B367's "you cannot move while sitting" prevents doing a retreat (also B377 "You cannot retreat while in a sitting or kneeling posture"), which means she didn't have time to do a maneuver like Change Posture which would've allowed a retreat that relocated her to a hex further away to avoid the iceball.

I think in the case where it's an AE ranged attack, you can't simply "dodge" to avoid it by moving to a different hex, so somethin aking to a Parry or Block (using forearms as improvised shields) to use your arm HP as cover DR for your face might be something we see in some cases.

Originally Posted by Aldric

My 3) would have been:
The frog (that looks a lot like a chameleon) takes a wait and prepares to take the girl out of trouble if she can't manage to get up and move out of the way

yeah she is a chameleon/sneaker hybrid, so I guess being in camo and doing "wait > AOA double to Attack then Shove People Around my nearest ally who is attacked" could be a standard support move.

I guess just hoping for "oh sh-" alternatives for when one lacks the foresight to wait, and do reactive attack techniques like interdiction

Originally Posted by Varyon

This falls into the general theme of "acting out of turn." One option, as others have noted, is to use a Wait - but in fiction this typically isn't a case of "I know something bad's going to happen, so I'll push/pull my ally out of danger if it does," but rather "Oh crap, something bad is happening right now, so I'll push/pull my ally out of danger." It's something that works well in fiction (and is doable in reality), but doesn't really work for anything turn-based - the sort of action involved is more akin to an attack than a defense in terms of how long it takes.

Yeah which is mostly why I'm looking at stuff like Aggressive Parry / Grabbing Parry as "attacks from parries" precedent for acting out of turn.

Essentially, by combining Hand Catch (or Grabbing Parry) + Sacrificial Parry it should be possible to parry+grapple an enemy who just attacked my ally prior to that attack landing, so it'd be a matter of switching it up to be able to instead attack your ally, plus also sort of getting a "double attack" technique in your aggressive/handcatch/grabbing parry so that you can immediately follow the grapple with a Shove/SPA

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=15

I think it would rely on the "Defense engages someone who isn't attacking" technique modifier that Kromm defined as -1, which can be paid for by the +1 from "Most parry bonuses don't apply"

I don't think getting 2 attacks would be as simple as "Parry counts as low-damage attack" being taken twice, so it might require using a 2nd parry (at -4) after the grapple succeeds, to then reposition your ally.

I'm not clear how you'd design a tongue capable of grappling in the first place though, it might require defining the tongue as an arm (like with parrots) unless pyramid has something more suitable under natural weapons (a whip/lariat/kusari like curmudeon suggested)

Originally Posted by Varyon

Once you've got that, for the use case of getting an ally out of danger, you use the above rules, but use the lower of your attack roll (at -4 for acting out of turn) and what your Parry would be with that skill (maybe Parry at a penalty, like for Aggressive Parry) to determine if you manage to push/pull your ally out of danger.

Yeah I'm liking the idea of consecutive parry rolls, basically the 1st is to see if you grapple your ally before the attack lands, and the 2nd is to see if you followup that grapple with a pull (pseudo-shoving) before the attack lands.

If the 1st parry succeeded but the 2nd failed then probably all that would happen is your tongue gets squished alongside your ally.

Originally Posted by Varyon

In case it matters, if your roll would have succeeded at the attack but failed at the Parry, you manage to push/pull your ally out of danger too late to avoid the hit. If your roll would have succeeded at the Parry but failed at the attack, you managed to act quickly enough, but missed grabbing/shoving your ally.

In theory you could do two separate rolls here, but I think that might make it a bit too difficult.

I prefer the separate rolls, though I know Technical Grappling moves away from the 2-rolls precedent set by Aggressive Parry / Jam / Handcatch when Cole wrote Grabbing Parry / Escaping Parry.

Much like Psionic Powers did with Psi-Techniques (blending the Temporary Enhancements and Requires IQ roll checks into a single die roll instead of 2 rolls) I think Cole did that to streamline gameplay, but the downside to doing this is you get a lower variety of outcomes.

Handcatch had results like "you completed the penalized parry but didn't catch the hand" which is no longer possible with Grabbing Parry. It'd be similar if you had Parrying Unarmed Weapons where a successful parry ALWAYS damaged the hand punching it, which ignores possibilities like an undamaging parry w/ the flat of a blade being all you can manage.