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Old 01-17-2022, 11:12 PM   #1
Michael Thayne
 
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Default [DF] World-building the magic item (and power item) industry

For many questions of the form "how does X work in a Dungeon Fantasy universe?", there's a lot of canonical guidance, because there's at least a possibility of the PCs doing X, so there are rules for it. But this is much less true for magic items and power items.

In the case of enchantment, there are questions like, "do NPC enchanters use the system in Magic?", "do clerics use the same system as wizards, or might for example clerics use devotional magic (GURPS Magic, p. 71)?", and "are there some spells in the Enchantment college that only wizards can cast? Spells only clerics can cast?" (On this last point, it seems to me like Dancing Shield and Dancing Weapon should be wizard-only given that Dancing Object is wizard-only, as should many if not all spells in the "Limiting Enchantments" and "Wizardly Tools" categories.)

The case of power items is a bit different, because DF18 gave us the new Recharger advantage, but I have questions. If you look closely at the mechanics, it's going to be a struggle to make even what a 62-point hireling makes in DF15—shouldn't any spell-caster who can cast a spell at level 20+ (a prerequisite for the advantage) have better things to do with their time? That then raises the question of whether guilds and temples have specially prepared spaces where they can recharge items more quickly or what. Alternatively, maybe the right approach is to introduce a spell, Charge Power Item, that works like Charge Powerstone in most respects, just for power items instead.

Curious if anyone has tried to hammer these issues out.
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:23 AM   #2
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Default Re: [DF] World-building the magic item (and power item) industry

For enchantment, my inclination would be (if using the default rules) that the NPC's use the enchantment system from GURPS Magic (the prices are based on this being the case, and there's even a breakpoint between Quick and Dirty and Slow and Sure) - but with the addition that using certain magic reagents (like the mana organs PC's can harvest and sell) can speed up this process. This last bit would be simple - give the reagents a nominal monetary worth (which will generally be more than the PC's get out of selling them - an enchanter's still got to make a living), compare this to the cost of the enchantment, and reduce the time to enchant proportionally. Away from my books (and I don't have GURPS Magic anyway), but just throwing some numbers out, let's say something that takes 100 energy to enchant, and thus 100 mage-days (assuming 100 energy is beyond the breakpoint), costs $10,000 ($100 per mage-day, making "Enchanter" a Wealthy profession at DF's ~TL3, albeit I think on the low end). Tossing in $5,000 worth of appropriate magical reagents (gathered largely by adventurers) cuts that in half, for only 50 mage-days. This isn't as much use for Quick and Dirty enchantments, as I think those only take an hour regardless of how much energy is involved, although if we restructure it in that case to say the reagents let you make multiple instances of some magic item in that time (or have it reduce the energy cost as well as time, so that less rest is needed between enchantments), then high-output Q&D enchanters could get some use out of them. Note this also can be used to allow characters to have orders for custom magic items be expedited - a 5-enchanter circle can make a 100 energy item in only a day if they have $9,500 worth of magical reagents. For "class" restrictions, I'd actually be inclined to be less restrictive when it comes to enchanting. Perhaps a Wizard can't learn healing spells - but one who knows how to enchant can work around this by making a ring that does the healing for him/her.

For power item recharging, my preference is for towns to largely be built around some sort of Place of Power - a ley line convergence for mana-based magic, a holy site (which may just be a church) for sanctity-based magic, etc. This can give an excuse why the town isn't overrun by monsters (something is setup to leech some of the Place of Power's output into a protective ward) - or an excuse for why it's being attacked (monsters are attracted to - or hostile toward - the Place of Power; if combined with the above, something needs to disrupt the ward), if that's where you want to take the plot. Tapping into this Place of Power to recharge a power item is fairly simple (hence the low cost), but it's not something you can take with you. You could also have the money be used (in part - enchanter's got to eat) in some way to keep the Place of Power charged, perhaps by using those magic reagents from before.
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Old 01-18-2022, 09:25 AM   #3
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Default Re: [DF] World-building the magic item (and power item) industry

[QUOTE=Varyon;2411959This isn't as much use for Quick and Dirty enchantments, as I think those only take an hour regardless of how much energy is involved, [/QUOTE]

Nope, 1 hour per hundred energy. This is a significant limit when you try and exploit big sources of energy but are going beyond the normal 8 hour work day. That's minuses to skill.
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Old 01-18-2022, 09:35 AM   #4
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [DF] World-building the magic item (and power item) industry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
For enchantment, my inclination would be (if using the default rules) that the NPC's use the enchantment system from GURPS Magic (the prices are based on this being the case, and there's even a breakpoint between Quick and Dirty and Slow and Sure) - but with the addition that using certain magic reagents (like the mana organs PC's can harvest and sell) can speed up this process. This last bit would be simple - give the reagents a nominal monetary worth (which will generally be more than the PC's get out of selling them - an enchanter's still got to make a living), compare this to the cost of the enchantment, and reduce the time to enchant proportionally. Away from my books (and I don't have GURPS Magic anyway), but just throwing some numbers out, let's say something that takes 100 energy to enchant, and thus 100 mage-days (assuming 100 energy is beyond the breakpoint), costs $10,000 ($100 per mage-day, making "Enchanter" a Wealthy profession at DF's ~TL3, albeit I think on the low end). Tossing in $5,000 worth of appropriate magical reagents (gathered largely by adventurers) cuts that in half, for only 50 mage-days. This isn't as much use for Quick and Dirty enchantments, as I think those only take an hour regardless of how much energy is involved, although if we restructure it in that case to say the reagents let you make multiple instances of some magic item in that time (or have it reduce the energy cost as well as time, so that less rest is needed between enchantments), then high-output Q&D enchanters could get some use out of them. Note this also can be used to allow characters to have orders for custom magic items be expedited - a 5-enchanter circle can make a 100 energy item in only a day if they have $9,500 worth of magical reagents. For "class" restrictions, I'd actually be inclined to be less restrictive when it comes to enchanting. Perhaps a Wizard can't learn healing spells - but one who knows how to enchant can work around this by making a ring that does the healing for him/her.

For power item recharging, my preference is for towns to largely be built around some sort of Place of Power - a ley line convergence for mana-based magic, a holy site (which may just be a church) for sanctity-based magic, etc. This can give an excuse why the town isn't overrun by monsters (something is setup to leech some of the Place of Power's output into a protective ward) - or an excuse for why it's being attacked (monsters are attracted to - or hostile toward - the Place of Power; if combined with the above, something needs to disrupt the ward), if that's where you want to take the plot. Tapping into this Place of Power to recharge a power item is fairly simple (hence the low cost), but it's not something you can take with you. You could also have the money be used (in part - enchanter's got to eat) in some way to keep the Place of Power charged, perhaps by using those magic reagents from before.
The Place of Power idea is interesting, and it occurred to me that maybe power items can only be recharged in areas of high mana / sanctity. With sanctity, it makes sense that relevant places will be found in towns, but for mana there are more questions about whether every town has a high-mana area, if that affects distribution of towns, etc.

For magic items, I like the idea of restricting "Quick and Dirty" enchantment to certain items, like wizard staffs and ammunition. DFRPG seems to implicitly do this under the hood—the consequence of not doing this would probably be to make certain items like cornucopia quivers standard kit for decently well-funded armies. I'd also note that if you go by the prices in DF15, commissioning a new magic item should probably cost $45/energy point. The $20/energy point assumes a robust secondary market, and purchase options should probably be constrained by things rich people would've thought worth commissioning in the first place. Quick and Dirt enchantment should probably also cost more—perhaps as much as $5/point to match costs for spellcasting services suggested in the Caverntown book. Prices for recharging power items can be kept low on the grounds that there is a lot of demand so professional power item chargers can afford to spend less time on marketing, waiting for customers, etc.
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: [DF] World-building the magic item (and power item) industry

Thinking about this more, I'm almost tempted to say that the Charge Power Item spell only costs 1 FP per FP charged (or 2 FP per FP charged if the power item uses the Better Power Items perk). The catch is it can only be used in an area of high mana/sanctity (as appropriate for the item type). I'd even let PCs learn the spell, making such areas an incredible boon when encountered on an adventure—but areas of high sanctity for Good will be rare outside of town, and other places of power will likely already be in use by powerful spellcasters who will at worst be hostile and at best be unwilling to let strangers use their "spot" for free.
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:16 AM   #6
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Default Re: [DF] World-building the magic item (and power item) industry

Classic Technomancer has some rules and ideas for building enchanting production lines and the mass production of magic items. GURPS Fantasy 4th Ed has put also some thinking in mass production and industrial magic P. 67, GURPS Urban Magics has a lot of useful ideas in that field to.
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:31 AM   #7
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [DF] World-building the magic item (and power item) industry

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Classic Technomancer has some rules and ideas for building enchanting production lines and the mass production of magic items. GURPS Fantasy 4th Ed has put also some thinking in mass production and industrial magic P. 67, GURPS Urban Magics has a lot of useful ideas in that field to.
The bit about magic printing presses in Fantasy is interesting. Forms of printing are actually very old, and you could imagine versions of this even before TL4. For example, a society inspired by ancient Mesopotamia could mass-produce magic symbols using cylinder seals. Pyramid #3/66 also had something on industrial enchantment I should really look at.
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:40 AM   #8
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Default Re: [DF] World-building the magic item (and power item) industry

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
The case of power items is a bit different, because DF18 gave us the new Recharger advantage, but I have questions. If you look closely at the mechanics, it's going to be a struggle to make even what a 62-point hireling makes in DF15—shouldn't any spell-caster who can cast a spell at level 20+ (a prerequisite for the advantage) have better things to do with their time? That then raises the question of whether guilds and temples have specially prepared spaces where they can recharge items more quickly or what. Alternatively, maybe the right approach is to introduce a spell, Charge Power Item, that works like Charge Powerstone in most respects, just for power items instead.
Wow, I'd missed that advantage. Perhaps because its super expensive and gives niche results. I'd object strongly to the idea that its the way most power items are recharged: the wages are one concern, but also because its strange that every town is going to have one of these wizards, because they need at least 75 (advantage) + 5 (magery) + 44 (recover energy 20) = 124 points spent on being able to do this. I'd view that this is an exceptional ability that allows one man in the field to do the refilling, rather than as the standard method. After all, when's the last time they handed you back your $1,000 holy symbol your father gave you and said "Sorry, we rolled a critical failure and it won't hold a charge any more..."



I rather like the way that DF says "Enchanters are in town, here are the economics you can interact with" rather than giving job rolls and salaries and advantages. At least for DF.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
The Place of Power idea is interesting, and it occurred to me that maybe power items can only be recharged in areas of high mana / sanctity. With sanctity, it makes sense that relevant places will be found in towns, but for mana there are more questions about whether every town has a high-mana area, if that affects distribution of towns, etc.
Places of Power are fun, though it can be setting warping. I like them for DF-style settings, but they absolutely effect where towns are.



Note that mana enhancers and portable shrines can change the mana and sanctity of an area, so those numbers are not a sufficient explanation.



I think a combination of magical gear, fairly route labor by low-power magic users, and taking a while, is the best mechanism for power items. Places of power work as well, if you're willing to accept the accompanying effects in your setting.
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:52 AM   #9
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [DF] World-building the magic item (and power item) industry

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Note that mana enhancers and portable shrines can change the mana and sanctity of an area, so those numbers are not a sufficient explanation.
Portable shrines are probably game-breaking in other ways so I wouldn't be inclined to allow them. Though I guess Mana Enhancer is a canonical wizard power-up? Hmmm.
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Old 01-18-2022, 11:05 AM   #10
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Default Re: [DF] World-building the magic item (and power item) industry

Here's a proposal:
New Spell: Charge Power Item
Regular

Charges a power item, at an energy cost to the caster. Cannot charge a power item beyond its normal maximum. Only works on power items appropriate to your type of caster.

Time to cast: Normally eight hours, becomes 1 second in high mana or high sanctity areas (as appropriate).
Cost: Any amount; the energy spent by the caster goes to power item as restored FP (e.g., if the caster spends 5 energy, the power item regains 5 lost FP). Casting cost is not reduced by high skill.
Prerequisites: Same as the prerequisites for your caster type.
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