Are proliferating perks a danger to GURPS?

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by malloyd

True. Though nobody took me up on discussing *which ones* are overpowered last time. I think there are a dozen or so, but most of them are fine.

Start a new thread on that subject. I doubt I have much to contribute but it'll be interesting to read.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Kale

I'm a fan of limiting combat-related perks to style limitations and related skills. For instance in High Tech I think the gun-related perks were limited to 1 perk to X points spent in style/firearm related skills. This means that only 'masters' or at least very experienced PCs can get a large number of perks.

Make sure you include CPs spent on Gunslinger in that equation. Maybe even Combat Reflexes too.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Kromm

All I'll say on Weapon Bond is that "+1 to skill with one weapon in the whole universe" is self-evidently less useful than "+1 to skill with every weapon ever made in one broad class," and in fact represents the most severe possible limitation on the latter case. That's canonically -80%, so Weapon Bond is worth 0.8 point; thus, 1 point a bit of a ***, not a bargain. Weapon Bond is only a bargain in campaigns where the PCs never lose or willingly replace their weapons, and where they can get away with using one weapon for everything from campaign start to campaign finish. In more sensible campaigns, it's entirely balanced.

Doesn't it synergize really well with Signature Gear?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Doesn't it synergize really well with Signature Gear?

So well that you'd be crazy not to take both together if you can.

Still, 2 points matches the cost of the first level of an Average Skill, so the combo of WB and SG are more 'efficient' for Hard weapons.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by mrgoldenbrown

If anyone at SJ is wondering whether the bandwidth costs of these forums are worth it, let it be known that this post pretty much forced me to part with $8 to buy a supplement i hadn't even heard of 30 minutes ago. Thanks Ulz!

SJ Games have at times been slow to update it, but this page can be used to keep track on the latest GURPS-pertinent e23 PDFs. Note that the new Pyramid magazine is not included, but everything else GURPS-specific is.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

So well that you'd be crazy not to take both together if you can.

Still, 2 points matches the cost of the first level of an Average Skill, so the combo of WB and SG are more 'efficient' for Hard weapons.

But my thinking is you don't spend 1 CP Weapon Bond and 1 CP on Signature Gear. You spend a bunch of CPs on Signature Gear to buy yourself a Very Fine sword. Or VF submachine gun. Or similar.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

But my thinking is you don't spend 1 CP Weapon Bond and 1 CP on Signature Gear. You spend a bunch of CPs on Signature Gear to buy yourself a Very Fine sword. Or VF submachine gun. Or similar.

True, in which case, for one point you are buying a +1 to skill for the weapon you will virtually always use (if you choose wisely).

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by malloyd

True. Though nobody took me up on discussing *which ones* are overpowered last time. I think there are a dozen or so, but most of them are fine.

Here is a list of some overpowered Perks (with a suggestion on how much they should cost, e.g., how much I charge for them in my campaign).

Most of those perks are combat-related simply because players are more likely to abuse "fighting" perks than "social" ones. I am including only "realistic" perks, not cinematic ones.

-WEAPON BOND: in the long run you MIGHT regret taking it, but in most campaigns is a very good deal - too good that MOST fighters will want it. You get +1 to combat skill for just 1 point (saving 3 points) and if you lose your weapon you can acquire a new Weapon Bond (and you're still saving 2 points). The fact that Weapon Bond costs like an extra level of skill with a -80% limitation is a moot point - you cannot add limitations to skill levels!
Suggested cost: 2 points

-MAGICAL WEAPON BOND: this is like Weapon Bond, without its drawbacks. Suggested cost: 3 points, or simply buy 1 extra level of skill and stop munchkinizing :)

-ARMOR FAMILIARITY: that's basically +1 to a weapon skill AND a further +1 for parrying purposes (since +2 to attack equals +1 to parry). If you choose that perk, you will ALWAYS benefit from it because you will wear armor and always be encumbered. "Only when armored" is NOT a significant limitation for "+1 to combat skill"... every sane GM will agree on that.
Note that Enhanced Parry costs 5 points, and Armor Familiarity gives you +1 to attacks *in addition* to EP benefits!
Suggested cost: 5 points

- CLINCH: this is not really overpowered but allowing it will dramatically change the way martial artist are designed (making grappling skills far less important)

- EXOTIC WEAPON TRAINING: this is a +1 to combat skill, always. It should simply be removed, or possibly it should cost 3 points. Even then, ALL fighters who use "exotic" weapons will choose it.

- FORM MASTERY: this perk basically allows you to get a +2 to parry when fighting with a Spear. It's like a limited, but more powerful, Enhanced Parry.
Suggested cost: 5 points.

- GRIP MASTERY: this perk basically grant you a +1 to parry (because you can "freely" assume a Defensive Grip and then relinquish it to attack).
Suggested cost: 4 or 5 points.

-SURE FOOTED and NAVAL TRAINING: those perks grant you a "full" +2 to skill (when fighting on specific terrains). If such terrains are quite common (e.g. a naval campaign, or a desert one) then ALL fighters will choose one of those perks. Suggested cost: 1 or 2 points.

-POWER GRAPPLING: it's difficult to evaluate how powerful it is... but it's clearly *extremely* valuable to high-ST characters. Probably it's worth more than 1 point.

-REACH MASTERY: this perk is VERY useful. Long weapons are *significantly* more powerful if you allow it (assuming you are using tactical maps). Suggested cost: 2/3 points.

- SHIELD WALL TRAINING: this perk is SO overpowered... it gives a +2 to combat skill (which is normally worth 8 points) for just 1 point, and has extra benefits!
Without it, no warrior will ever choose a Large shield. If it's allowed, no warrior will ever choose a shield other than a Large one. Suggested cost: 7 points; OR split it into two perks, "Sacrificial Block" for 1 point and "Large Shield training" for 6 points.

- SPECIAL SETUP (and RULES EXEMPTION, EXTRA OPTION and other similar perks): those perks are very easily abusable. They should cost more (2-5 points) and/or be strictly controlled by the GM.

- STRONGBOW: that's +2 to Striking Strenght for a single weapon skill, with the "fake" drawback it requires you to have the weapon skill at DX+2. The drawback is fake because every PC who bothers to buy this, will have a good weapon skill.
Suggested cost: 3 points

-STYLE FAMILIARITY: this perk grants significant benefits; notably a +1 to defenses against co-stylists (every time the enemy tries a deceptive/feint, that is, ALWAYS if he want to have a chance to hit a powerful PC). If the campaign does not feature DOZENS of styles, but just 4 or 5 styles, this perk is even more powerful.
Suggested cost: 2-3 points.

-TEAMWORK: this perk is so convoluted I don't think I would allow it. If I were to do so, I would charge 2 points for it. (note that it basically *includes* Sacrificial Parry and the "Sacrificial Block" portion of Shield Wall Training, only with the fuzzy "form up and then stay adjacent" requirement).

-TRADEMARK MOVE: not really overpowered, but it is particularly useful if you use more than one skill in your "full turn's worth of combat actions". Moreover, most players will try to buy Trademark Move for their most effective, favoured move... in that case, this "+1 to a single move" will look suspiciously similar to "+1 to skill".
Suggested cost: 2 points.

- EFFICIENT: this perk grants +2 to a skill whenever you are in a hurry. In most campaigns, technicians are ALWAYS in a hurry... and +2 to skill would cost 8 points.
Suggested cost: 2/3 points

- OFF-HAND WEAPON TRAINING: this perk makes Ambidexterity useless (unless your character makes a point of using different weapons and skills every time...). Moreover, in real life training to use your off-hand is difficult and time-consuming.
Suggested cost: 2 points

-SPECIAL EXERCISES: in some cases this perk is finely priced. For Damage Resistance, it's BADLY underpriced - because DR is outrageously cheap in low-tech and martial arts campaigns. Thus, if you really want to allow DR at the listed cost, Special Exercises for it should cost more - probably 3 or 4 points.

- PERFUME: this perk needs better explaining. What does "+1 on reaction rolls where a pleasant smell makes a difference" mean? A pleasant smell will ALWAYS be noticed when you talk with someone, so this means that PERFUME grants you +1 to reactions, like Attractive, only for 1 point?
In that case, suggested cost is 3 points.

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Please note that I like Perks and I agree they are a nice way to customize your character.
What I don't like is that some Perks are clearly more powerful than others... and that there is a fuzzy, complex, D&D-esque system to determine how many Perks you can acquire.

Moreover, newer GURPS books feature perks that are more and more overpowered - I am not commenting on GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles because MOST of its perks are badly underpriced (Limited Energy Reserve?).

I think Perks could work just fine in GURPS (and without weird requirements and limits) simply by increasing their costs.

And about Martial Arts styles: some people argue that a limit on how many Perks you can acquire is necessary to differentiate Martial Arts Styles. This is untrue.
If the GM wants to restrict some Perks to certain Martial Artists, he is free to do so - this doesn't change the fact that ALL Perks need to be balanced and fairly priced.

A limited accessibility of a given trait should not cause a discount of that trait's price - if it does, we're playing a "class" system like D&D, not a point system like GURPS.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Lupo

-ARMOR FAMILIARITY: that's basically +1 to a weapon skill AND a further +1 for parrying purposes (since +2 to attack equals +1 to parry). If you choose that perk, you will ALWAYS benefit from it because you will wear armor and always be encumbered. "Only when armored" is NOT a significant limitation for "+1 to combat skill"... every sane GM will agree on that.

You realize that Armor Familiarity is bought by hit location, right? Mrugnak wears two suits of armor. I'd have to spend at least six points to prevent combat penalties, because I'd want to buy off layering over the torso and groin (general dx penalty) and both arms, and both hands. But I'd frankly want no DX penalties in any situation, so that's both legs, both feet, and neck for a total of 11 points.

-SPECIAL EXERCISES: in some cases this perk is finely priced. For Damage Resistance, it's BADLY underpriced - because DR is outrageously cheap in low-tech and martial arts campaigns. Thus, if you really want to allow DR at the listed cost, Special Exercises for it should cost more - probably 3 or 4 points.

Uh. Special Exercises doesn't give you the DR. You have to buy the DR at the listed point cost. It's just an unusual background tax.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Uh. Special Exercises doesn't give you the DR. You have to buy the DR at the listed point cost. It's just an unusual background tax.

Isn't that also the case with the Strongbow Perk, which Lupo also criticizes?

So far, it looks to me as if Lupo is failing to read the rules for the Perks that he accuses of being overpowered, and that's not a good sign...