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Old 10-28-2013, 07:30 AM   #11
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Decent armour (medium plate, heavy mail, etc) should be able to resist a lance charge.
Only is the fact its doesn't here a factor of armour being to weak or charges too strong? (or some mix of the two of course)

do you have a cite for heavy mail not being pieced by charging lances?

Also I was thinking about point protection for armour ala edge protection in Low tech. Something like unless pi, pi+, pi++ or imp is double DR any surplus damage becomes cr?

That way you can still have heavy mail, plate etc doing well

However unlike cutting attacks I'd rule the DR has to be 4+ to get this effect meaning only thicker heavier mail, plate etc would qualify, and would further benefit targeting gaps and chinks with picks etc.

EDIT: sorry when you say "resist" do you mean "stop" (most of the time given reasonable parameters) or "reduce" (as in make survivable)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-28-2013 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:51 AM   #12
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by Loukas View Post
The author may be right that he fears a big man on a little horse more than a little man on a big horse, but by your extreme suggestion, a big man without a horse at all is just as fearsome!
Well if nothing else a big man (in full kit) on a little horse isn't going to be charging very fast or very far, and a little man may have difficulty positioning the lance.

I read that bit and wasn't sure myself, I'm assuming he meant all else being the equal* etc, etc (but of course all else won't be equal and all these factors will have their own limits etc). I can believe the man is in general "pound-for-pound" more important than the horse, but that's not saying the horse is unimportant.

*however the article is a bit light on detail

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-28-2013 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:16 AM   #13
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Well if nothing else a big man (in full kit) on a little horse isn't going to be charging very fast or very far, and a little man may have difficulty positioning the lance.

I read that bit and wasn't sure myself, I'm assuming he meant all else being the equal* etc, etc (but of course all else won't be equal and all these factors will have their own limits etc). I can believe the man is in general "pound-for-pound" more important than the horse, but that's not saying the horse is unimportant.

*however the article is a bit light on detail
From the article it sounds like the horse's strength is important, but the rider's strength imposes an upper limit on how much impact can be transferred to the target.

Meaning that a big guy who transfers 100% of a smaller horse's energy may indeed be more deadly than someone who is pushed back by the impact and in that way absorbs much of the energy himself.

Although isn't it true that light cavalry, like 19th century lancers, were often not particularly big men?
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:43 AM   #14
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Well if nothing else a big man (in full kit) on a little horse isn't going to be charging very fast or very far, and a little man may have difficulty positioning the lance.
He's talking about in a joust, which would assume professionals riding trained mounts. You aren't going to use a mount that can't effectively carry you, and someone too weak for jousting isn't going to be jousting. I don't see any need for the article to spell this out.

As for GURPS mechanics, I'd imagine the impact is indeed stronger than what the person could manage with arm strength alone, but is limited by the amount the person can handle. Offhand, I'd say work it as an armed slam using the rider's ST, but limit thr damage to something like 1.5x the character's normal thrust damage. So, a Move 8 charge by an ST 12 person would deal 12*8/100=1d, +3 for the lance. Using ST/20 for thr, that means the character normally does 0.6d+3 with a lance. If we're limiting to 1.5x ST, that means we'd cap it at ST 18, for 0.9d+3.
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Offhand, I'd say work it as an armed slam using the rider's ST, but limit thr damage to something like 1.5x the character's normal thrust damage.
Shouldn't that be more like 1½× (or whatever) of the character's maximum thrust or weapon-slam damage?
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Old 10-28-2013, 09:06 AM   #16
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by Loukas View Post
From the article it sounds like the horse's strength is important, but the rider's strength imposes an upper limit on how much impact can be transferred to the target.

Meaning that a big guy who transfers 100% of a smaller horse's energy may indeed be more deadly than someone who is pushed back by the impact and in that way absorbs much of the energy himself.
Well as Anthony says all the kit involved is to help transfer the horse's momentum into the striking tip of the lance beyond what is physically possible by a rider alone. i.e it increases the efficiency. So I think a hard upper limit is not right, but rather a limiting factor.

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Originally Posted by Loukas View Post
Although isn't it true that light cavalry, like 19th century lancers, were often not particularly big men?
Not sure, light cavalry and lancers are not necessarily the same thing. That said I think Cuirassies had mainly lost their lances by then leaving only the light horse to use them. But I'm, sure the French Cuirassies used lances at Waterloo?

Heavy/shock cavalry relying on a charge tended to be big men on big horses with big swords in the C19th though.

One other thing, not sure how often lances were couched in the C19th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
He's talking about in a joust, which would assume professionals riding trained mounts. You aren't going to use a mount that can't effectively carry you, and someone too weak for jousting isn't going to be jousting. I don't see any need for the article to spell this out.
Well that's why I assumed as much, however since we're talking about couched lances and their use in general, the point holds. Also effectively carry and too weak to joust are relative terms here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
As for GURPS mechanics, I'd imagine the impact is indeed stronger than what the person could manage with arm strength alone, but is limited by the amount the person can handle.

Offhand, I'd say work it as an armed slam using the rider's ST, but limit thr damage to something like 1.5x the character's normal thrust damage. So, a Move 8 charge by an ST 12 person would deal 12*8/100=1d, +3 for the lance. Using ST/20 for thr, that means the character normally does 0.6d+3 with a lance. If we're limiting to 1.5x ST, that means we'd cap it at ST 18, for 0.9d+3.
Hmm, will have to look through the underlying article in order to think about that*. But as general point I agree that the man sitting on top of the charging horse is certainly a limiting factor despite the built up saddle, stirrups etc. Which is why I averaged ST of both in my suggestion. I'd possibly give a negative as well to not having a suitable saddle as well.

*I've seen it before My first impression is that it going to depend on your POV of what a high ST is. In my campaign a human with ST14 is pretty rare.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-28-2013 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:07 AM   #17
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Shouldn't that be more like 1½× (or whatever) of the character's maximum thrust or weapon-slam damage?
Weapon-slam damage is what we're calculating, then limiting to 1.5xST to represent the fact that the character can only control up to a limited amount.

1.5xST was actually just something I chose because it "felt" right, but after the fact I realized I didn't need to depend on my own ideas - Technical Grappling to the rescue! From the article, the person is holding the lance with one hand, bracing it against his torso, and gripping the mount with both legs. Using TG, that sounds like either an All-Out or Committed Attack (what TG recommends for using the torso; indeed, the article's description of the moment of impact very much sounds like an All-Out Attack) using one arm and both legs, for 1.3xST. We should probably use Trained ST, and as Lance is pretty much only usable for this and most of the training is going to be in delivering maximum force in the impact, I'd say Fast progression is about right. Finally, the article notes that stirrups and cantle are both unnecessary but are useful. +1 to the damage limit for having a cantle (with some tournament specimens perhaps giving +2) and possibly +1 to skill for having stirrups and cantle, may be appropriate. Altogether, this means our theoretical ST 12 knight (12*1.3=15.6, round normally to 16), assuming Lance at DX+2 (TST 18), has an upper limit of 18/20=.9d, +1 for cantle, +2 for All-Out Attack (Strong), +3 for lance. The linked system suggests converting adds to an ST multiplier, making our total +6 into x3 for ST, which should probably be applied before any other bonus, so we're looking at ST 36*1.3=47, +8 for TST 55, or 2.75d. This is consistent with what we calculated above (which would have worked out to 2.6d), but probably too high - should a charging knight really do the same damage as a .357 Magnum? Of course, with ST 32 (cantle and TST should add to limit, not damage, in this case), the knight needs to be traveling at Move 8.6 to reach this limit. Should a knight moving at 17.6 mph and striking with a lance have comparable penetration to a .357 Magnum firing APHC (remember, AD (2) for lance) rounds?

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Well that's why I assumed as much, however since we're talking about couched lances and their use in general, the point holds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Article
In fact, in a joust I am more concerned about a large rider on a small horse, than a small rider on a large horse.
(emphasis mine)
I think that should clear up any confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Also effectively carry and too weak to joust are relative terms here.
If you are slowing the horse down enough that you aren't going to do as much damage as a weaker person, the horse isn't strong enough to effectively carry you - lose some weight or get a stronger horse so you don't kill the poor beast you're trying to ride.
If you can't keep the weapon on target during an impact, you're too weak to joust. In fact, the article notes the tests they put would-be jousters through before they let them actually joust, which would weed out anyone too weak.

Last edited by Varyon; 10-28-2013 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:39 AM   #18
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Only is the fact its doesn't here a factor of armour being to weak or charges too strong? (or some mix of the two of course)
A lot of the problem is slam rules in general. Slams have enormous total energy (a human doing a slam can easily exceed a kilojoule, a horse in a charge can exceed ten kilojoules) but are extremely poor at applying that energy for purposes of damage. If, somehow, you were to apply the entire kinetic energy of the horse behind a lance, you'd be doing 10+ dice of damage, but what actually happens is that the lance hits and starts compressing, and then force builds up until something yields, generally the weakest link. Unless the weakest link is the armor, it won't penetrate armor.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:40 PM   #19
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
A lot of the problem is slam rules in general. Slams have enormous total energy (a human doing a slam can easily exceed a kilojoule, a horse in a charge can exceed ten kilojoules) but are extremely poor at applying that energy for purposes of damage. If, somehow, you were to apply the entire kinetic energy of the horse behind a lance, you'd be doing 10+ dice of damage, but what actually happens is that the lance hits and starts compressing, and then force builds up until something yields, generally the weakest link. Unless the weakest link is the armor, it won't penetrate armor.
Well, specialised jousting maille is DR6 (LT111). So it takes 7 damage to make the armour yield, but 7 damage is not enough to knock back or disarm a ST 13 lancer, especially a braced one. And I think the (real, not Art/Sport) lance should be able to handle more than that.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:42 PM   #20
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Default Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Weapon-slam damage is what we're calculating, then limiting to 1.5xST to represent the fact that the character can only control up to a limited amount.
And that's what I mean. If a character has e.g. a 4d weapon slam while on foot, he shouldn't get a limit of 3d while on horseback. See Martial Arts, p. 107.
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