06-06-2012, 11:12 AM | #21 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan
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Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)
For a list of rituals somewhat suitable for a "White Sorcerer," scratch off the first couple of pages of rules I write here and just treat the skills as ones that Sorcerers can learn from the right traditions. Most of them are strictly about sensing things or being less noticeable.
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06-06-2012, 01:15 PM | #22 | |
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)
But not a perfect one, which is an absolutely critical hurdle you are deliberately ignoring in jumping from "X is a correlation" to "X Damns you".
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As far as the Symphony is concerned, yes he is. He did not have it thrust into his face; he did not willingly, wilfully, and in full knowledge of the consequences deliberately and directly sell his soul to Hell, and all the fine print in the universe means diddle-squat next to the Symphony's knowledge of the actual signing. Because unlike RL legal contracts, the Symphony is fair, no matter how strongly Asmodeus is trying to make it otherwise. When it's judgment time, you get what the Symphony's rules say you deserve for deliberately opposing it or not deliberately opposing it or deliberately helping it. |
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06-06-2012, 11:17 PM | #23 | |||
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Life imitates art--I'm in Pohang
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Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)
I'm think we're dealing with wildly different brightness/contrast levels here. I'm coming from darkish and low contrast—think Sin City meets Band of Brothers. (I'd say Supernatural but I haven't seen Season 6 and I hear it gets really hairy dark there.) Your Symphony is fair. Mine is merely impartial.
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Again I think it's difference of contrast. There's also my belief that none but the most desperate or shallow will knowingly sign up for Hell in exchange for a few decades worth of power. Granted Hell will find plenty of those! I just hold that sin in general is gradual and enticing, not clearly spelled out ahead of time, and I think this particular form should follow suit. There's also my RL analog again (Yes, I know it's a game, but I try to keep things credible). Nobody I know, and very few that I know of, will tell you they've sold their souls to the devil. Plenty work for gods of antiquity or very bluntly for themselves. It's hard for me to imagine what kind of nominally sane person would sell. What I do like to play with is the idea of a guy who believes he's sold his soul, true or not, and discovers he's going to die. Repent, give up and pursue vice, or try to weasel his way out? Quote:
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06-08-2012, 01:03 AM | #24 | |||||
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)
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Soul-selling is an entirely different thing, and I feel Hellsworn should be nearly as rare as Soldiers of God compared to the rest of the population, and frankly, both sets include a fair number of clinically insane people even once you get past how they believe there are incorporeal beings who directly meddle with human affairs (i.e. celestials and ethereals). Quote:
This is also borne out in the idea of so-called Grey Soldiers, the majority of whom are Hellsworn who chickened out some time after getting the power. Quote:
Or, of course, one who's frankly insane. Consider also - would anyone you know, or anyone you know of, willingly put everything they care about, everything they have any desire to achieve, a strict and distant second to following a cause that will expect their service when demanded, without notice, will expect them to risk life and limb every day they are called upon, will put them in constant danger of reprisal from its enemies merely for agreeing to ever serve it, will rarely if ever give them tasks which obviously benefit others, and will give them no rewards whatsoever until they die? Because even in a Bright reading of canon that's what's asked of a Soldier of God, and that's the yardstick against which the plausibility of Hellsworn needs to be measured. Quote:
If it's for an IN context, specifically - it would have to be that you are leaving the Prince of the Universe mindset behind. Demons keeping track of contracts has nothing to do with the damnation algorithm; otherwise Mammon wouldn't have to act to ensure those who sign 100% mundane contracts selling their souls to him for cash actually go Downstairs. Quote:
Also, the concept that you can "hold it together by sheer will" is straight up contradictory to canon. Someone who has Will 10, Sorcery, and uses it to get Spirit Jars and spend lots of Essence on Predict Winning Racehorse rolls is not really doing enough with his life to go anywhere. |
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06-08-2012, 09:22 AM | #25 | |
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)
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06-08-2012, 12:28 PM | #26 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)
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As of CPG at the very least, though, the mechanics and setting as written don't actually allow for how I would expect "Hell Soldiers" to work in a setting that's using them to emphasise that sin is subtle and corrupting. No need to know you're working for demons - but no supernatural flag of "you got powers from demons, you're going to Hell", merely the fact that your part of the deal happens to include your Fate... Last edited by Omegonthesane; 06-08-2012 at 12:32 PM. |
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06-09-2012, 09:39 PM | #27 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)
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I also disagree with your reasoning behind Dominic going into auto-purge mode; Dark Low Contrast Dominic would kill a sorcerer because he's a sorcerer and because Dominic forbade sorcery, not because he's probably damned. I cannot imagine Dominic being utilitarian in his judgments; he's far more Old Testament than that. Making terrible decisions for the greater good is more Michael's schtick; a Malakim of War would be the one to look at sorcerers and say "Kill them all; God will know his own" without any irony whatsoever. |
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06-09-2012, 10:40 PM | #28 |
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Life imitates art--I'm in Pohang
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Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)
Where's the "like" button? Well put. And I'm totally enjoying this whole thread.
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Criminy...these two have enough issues, they can sell subscriptions! (ladyarcana55, in a PM)
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06-13-2012, 02:33 PM | #29 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)
A long time ago, I submitted a Pyramid article on a closely related subject…
The basic concept here was to introduce another kind of human "magic user", one that's built on a Perception-based model rather than the Will-based one that sorcerers use (thus, "seers"). I gave them skills like Channeling, Communion, and Divination rather than the Summon/Banish/etc. model used by sorcerers. Different attitude, different powers; but some strong parallels intended to imply that seers and sorcerers are two halves of a whole. Last edited by dataweaver; 06-13-2012 at 03:04 PM. |
06-13-2012, 02:46 PM | #30 | |
Petitioner: Word of IN Filk
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Longmont, CO
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Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)
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“It's not railroading if you offer the PCs tickets and they stampede to the box office, waving their money. Metaphorically speaking” --Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor Author: "What Doesn't Kill Me Makes Me Stronger" |
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