Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules)

Drop Bear · 05-24-2012, 08:24 AM

This topic is intended to be a Grab Bag of new (well new to you but old to me, and new to me if other folks post interesting stuff) odds and ends for Sorcery, with Attunements, Rituals, Rites and such

Attunments

Symphonic Attunment (Celestial & Ethereal)
for 10 points A Celestial (or Ethereal) may Attune a Sorcerer who did not gain their Sorcery Attunment via an Infernal Pack (Corporeal Players Guide P.28), the Sorcerer is no longer Hell-sworn by virtue of their Sorcery Attunment alone, and are now bound by their own Fate and Actions, Normally Fate has some claim to the Soul of a Sorcerer, but this Attunment frees the Sorcerer to the Damnation they deserve, True some Sorcerers have escaped the grip of Hell through this Attunment, but every year more and more damn themselves again through their own actions and Pacts made to gain more Power.

This Attunment has bean lost for Centuries but was rediscovered at the turn of the Millennium by Sara the (Free) Lilim of Choice, at first the Princes of Hell where horrified by the concept of Freeing Hell-sworn until they realized almost always all they where doing was freeing them from any claim Fate had to them, oftern they where already damned by other means or would quickly damn them selves again. Since it's rediscovery it has quickly propagated amongst the Princes of Hell and selected favored servants, some Ethereals and even one or two Archangels, despite the disapproval of the likes of Dominic and Laurence.

Symphonic Attunment (Corporeal)
for 5 points a Sorcerer has become attuned to the true Symphony, though they can not hear it in all it's true glory at least they have cut through the Cacophony and if they have not damned themselves by other means are no longer Hell-sworn. Provided the Sorcerer is not Damned by other means they are subject to Interventions as a Normal Person or Grey Solder.

Theurgy
For 10 Points the Character has bean Initiated in to one of the Divine Mystic Arts practiced by Wise and Learned Men (and Women) of True Faith, it is much the same as Sorcery having the same basic requirements, except the Thergest is Willful and Pious (you must have the Will and the Faith to do the Lords work and wield this power) instead of Willful and Selfish, also they undergo a Theurgic Initiation instead of a Sorcerers one. A Theurgist is aligned with the forces of Heaven and receives Divine Interventions like a Solder of God or member of the Host. Should a Thirgest find themselves Damned they will be unable to use their Theurgic abilities until they can free themselves from Hells grip.

Theurgic Skills and Rituals are very slimmer to Sorcerers ones but not the same and must be acquired separately, if the character practices both Sorcery and Theurgy and the Character has a Ritual in both it's Thurgic and Sorcerers forms they receive +1 to the CD just as they would for knowing the same song in two Realms.

Banishment and Exorcism are almost universally practiced by the Theurgic Traditions, Focus (for it's protection Wards) is widely but not universally practiced, Command is exceeding Rare and normally only studied by the most advanced practitioners and Summoning is all but unheard of and heavily discouraged by Angelic Patrons (usually by Smiting those who try and study it).

JCD · 05-24-2012, 09:20 AM

Please excuse me.

IIRC, and I did not check the books, but the sorcery attunement is not automatically Infernally laden. True, it is one of the quickest and easiest ways to get a spiritual connection ("Just sign on the dotted line, Sir..."), but it is not actually NECESSARY.

Unfortunately, as you described, sorcrerers are damned by their own actions. The same force that makes them force the world to Be As They Will, is the same force that makes them force others to submit. My way or the highway.

CPG pg 28

Quote:

Sorcery
This attunement allows the user to practice sorcery. It
can only be acquired by someone who meets the other
requirements to be a sorcerer (p. 33). It opens the
sorcerer’s mind to the Symphony and allows him to use
Essence to manipulate the Symphony’s chords through
sorcerous rituals. The attunement can be gained in two
ways; the hard way is to go through an Initiation ritual
(p. 45). The easy way is to be granted the attunement by
a demon of Sorcery (see Infernal Pact, above).

Rocket Man · 05-24-2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

Please excuse me.

IIRC, and I did not check the books, but the sorcery attunement is not automatically Infernally laden.

Correct. Even the original Sorcery rules in The Marches, which came much closer to that assumption, still only said "Most of them are damned" (pg. 51), not all.

Drop Bear · 05-24-2012, 05:10 PM

buried in the text of the CPG (I'll find the page reference if you like) it sais that they take interventions like SoH & Demons, even if they get Initiated, it's a major check box on the the Damned side of the Karmic Ledger that you have to work off if you don't want to end up in hell once your done with your mortal span, Symphonic Attunment is a quick and easy (if the Sorcerer has 5 pts to spare) to sidestep that piece of Kama.

tHEhERETIC · 05-24-2012, 07:58 PM

When I put sorcery into my game I only had the CPG and not The Marches, and the references in the CPG are all over that book. Regretting that I shipped my dead tree copies out, but it was necessary.

To me it came down to pg 46--there's one process to open up the sense to Hear, and a second process to Speak. The latter in most cases is a Symphonic Awakening, and that in most cases includes a clause swearing one's soul to a demon. Think of it as the fine print in a contract. The demon doesn't even have to be present, the better not to have that sticky question come up that the demon, against every other fiber of its nature, has to answer honestly. Just a bunch of guys standing around talking in arcane languages, invoking the demon, and that demon (Hatiphas--though I imagine she could send an underling) has an open invitation to show up and "bless" the poor initiate.

Your attunement then has a limited use--a demon, almost certainly a Free Lilim, wants to make a sorcerer without chaining him down in any way at all. Pg. 74 sidebox suggests that such a thing exists, and suggests that an ethereal could do it too. Well, you did file that under celestial/ethereal, didn't you?

Corporeal sounds like a Hellsworn old man's wet dream. What, I can reap all the benefits of a pact my whole life, then get a fellow sorcerer to remove the pact? I don't see Hell allowing such a ritual to survive, if they can help it.

Theurgy seems to describe what a priest/exorcist would learn. To me it's simply sorcery, except instead of saying "I (the most important being in the Universe) tell you to go to Hell" he's saying "I in the name of the Lord..." It is a different attitude, significantly, and as such would change much of the ritual involved. I personally wouldn't +1 the CD in this case, based on my experience knowing bits of two different languages. It's far too easy to say "kudasai" in Korea and really offend someone doing so.

Drop Bear · 05-24-2012, 10:59 PM

Lets look at three Sorcerers "Bob" "Frank" & "Jen".

"Bob" swears an Infernal Pact to gain his Sorcery Attunment, no two ways about it he has Karmicly seeking "Had Carnal Knowledge of the Diminutive Canine", he's going to Hell unless he finds true redemption. Symphonic Attunment is useless to him

"Frank" went about getting his Sorcery Attunment the hard way through long and serious study and a Sorcerers Initiation, even if he's not that bad a person he's going to Hell because of it unless he is actively very good. Symphonic Attunment will wipe that Karmic Black Mark from his record and his post mortality destination will be based on the sum of his life's actions and choices. for guys like "Frank" most of the time it's just a case of an Infernal wiping Fares claim of a Soul based wholly on the practice of Sorcery and steeling said Souls back for their Princes.

"Jen" is a Wicca Chick who gained her Attunment via a Pact with an Ethereal being, without Symphonic Attunment once she has spent some time in her patrons realm out in the Marches she will be sucked down in to Hell, with Symphonic Attunment she spends more time in her Patrons Realm before moving on to her true Karmic Reward (or Punishment).

As to the +1 CD for knowing both the Sorcery and Theurgy rituals, it's not about knowing the languages, it's about knowing how the Symphony is supposed to work from separate perspectives and therefore being more clued in to how it really works, just like knowing diffrent realms of the same Song.

ISNorden · 05-25-2012, 12:03 AM

Most of these are useful for my own heretical campaign, especially considering these differences:

Heaven has an Archangel of the Mysteries (an Ofanite named Raziel; I forget the web link to his stats). He'd be the one to teach Theurgy to a few disciplined, knowledgeable and pious mortals; the Kabbalistic specialists in Jewish folklore would certainly side with God, not Lucifer. (My own campaign even has an ex-Pagan Sorceress turned Theurgist, after an unexpected Divine Intervention projected her into a vision of the Lower Heavens.)
Since the War has three sides in this campaign, it stands to reason that some ethereal gods want magicians fighting for them...AND that a few in the still-active pantheons are able to do so. (Odin, with his affinity for hidden knowledge, might awaken a Sorcerer whose only spiritual loyalty is to Asgard. Other pagan gods with similar power and affinity might choose their own magician-followers, at the GM's option.)
Unless they've been particularly selfish or cruel, a Sorcerer whose power doesn't come from Hell...doesn't automatically go to Hell for using most rituals. I say "most" because Gray and Theurgist characters shouldn't be learning to summon or enslave demons; the other rites may be good or evil depending on the user's intent.
One minor change from the CPG rules: Non-demonic Sorcererers follow the Intervention rules for the side they actually chose. Divine Interventions, not Infernal, are better for a Theurgist; and Ethereal Interventions (333) are better for Gray/Pagan Sorcerers. (A magician whose powers come from Thoth, Odin, or the Wiccan Goddess is likely to get in trouble with both Celestial sides.)

My only disagreement with the attunements as written: Corporeal Attunement strikes me as abusable ("Get out of Fate cheap") and hard to justify in game logic. (With no spiritual support, where's the Symphonic link coming from?) Otherwise, you did a decent job!

Drop Bear · 05-25-2012, 02:03 AM

Just the start, I've got some Focus Rituals coming and a few sample Rites and other odds & ends.

Omegonthesane · 05-25-2012, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drop Bear

buried in the text of the CPG (I'll find the page reference if you like) it sais that they take interventions like SoH & Demons, even if they get Initiated, it's a major check box on the the Damned side of the Karmic Ledger that you have to work off if you don't want to end up in hell once your done with your mortal span, Symphonic Attunment is a quick and easy (if the Sorcerer has 5 pts to spare) to sidestep that piece of Kama.

"Benefits from Diabolical Interventions more than Divine ones" is far from the same thing as "Damned".

I frankly feel it deeply damages the themes and intent of In Nomine if you have any way of selecting an afterlife destination other than "achieve Destiny" or "meet Fate". That being said before my group got the supplements clarifying that Hellsworn are damned because physics, we just kind of assumed Hellsworn were damned because "knowingly and willingly offering yourself to Hell in full knowledge of its agenda" was enough to make you count as Fated. I'd expect that actions equivalent to or greater than your actual Destiny/Fate on your local wheel of morality should get you Downstairs; you shouldn't have an Elohite encouraging someone Fated to be done for drunk driving to go on a mass murder suicide spree before he touches a wheel so that he didn't commit the exact sin that he was marked to commit.

To be fair, I'd also be inclined to make it so that e.g. Oathtaking actually has no supernatural power to send the client to Hell - the deal just happens to tend to include them meeting their Fate, preferably before they get the powerup...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

To me it came down to pg 46--there's one process to open up the sense to Hear, and a second process to Speak. The latter in most cases is a Symphonic Awakening, and that in most cases includes a clause swearing one's soul to a demon. Think of it as the fine print in a contract. The demon doesn't even have to be present, the better not to have that sticky question come up that the demon, against every other fiber of its nature, has to answer honestly. Just a bunch of guys standing around talking in arcane languages, invoking the demon, and that demon (Hatiphas--though I imagine she could send an underling) has an open invitation to show up and "bless" the poor initiate.

If that's doing it with Infernal Pact, fair enough, but being able to put the "your soul goes to Hell" wording into the fine print of Symphonic Awakening explicitly does not work, and should not work. In Nomine's entire "prove humans are/n't worthy of saving" conflict fails if there is any, any way to get into Hell where the blame does not rest squarely on the damned soul's shoulders. No matter how obscure.

The thing is, most Symphonic Awakenings performed by demons are performed on those who have done the Oathtaking or who learned Sorcery from an Infernal Pact, and in either case the Awakening is orthogonal to the damnation itself, metaphysically speaking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drop Bear

"Bob" swears an Infernal Pact to gain his Sorcery Attunment, no two ways about it he has Karmicly seeking "Had Carnal Knowledge of the Diminutive Canine", he's going to Hell unless he finds true redemption. Symphonic Attunment is useless to him

"Frank" went about getting his Sorcery Attunment the hard way through long and serious study and a Sorcerers Initiation, even if he's not that bad a person he's going to Hell because of it unless he is actively very good.

No, he explicitly is not, if he somehow manages to not be a bad person while having powers that no Soldier would be trusted with, which are literally powered by his own driving will to impose his beliefs and desires on the world. If he doesn't, then karmically, the Sorcery was only an enabler, a tool no more damning than a screwdriver all else being equal.

Ramidel · 06-03-2012, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drop Bear

buried in the text of the CPG (I'll find the page reference if you like) it sais that they take interventions like SoH & Demons, even if they get Initiated, it's a major check box on the the Damned side of the Karmic Ledger that you have to work off if you don't want to end up in hell once your done with your mortal span, Symphonic Attunment is a quick and easy (if the Sorcerer has 5 pts to spare) to sidestep that piece of Kama.

You're completely misunderstanding how destiny and fate work. There's no karmic ledger as such.

You go to Heaven if you achieve your Destiny but not your Fate. You go to Hell if you achieve your Fate but not your Destiny, or if you signed your soul over to Hell (regardless of fate or destiny). If you achieve neither or both, then you either reincarnate or your soul disbands.

If you initiate without an Infernal Pact, then Hell has no claim on your soul. Sorcery's a potent tool for dragging strong-willed mortals to their Fate, but no more than that.

05-24-2012, 08:24 AM	#1
Drop Bear Join Date: May 2012	Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules) This topic is intended to be a Grab Bag of new (well new to you but old to me, and new to me if other folks post interesting stuff) odds and ends for Sorcery, with Attunements, Rituals, Rites and such Attunments Symphonic Attunment (Celestial & Ethereal) for 10 points A Celestial (or Ethereal) may Attune a Sorcerer who did not gain their Sorcery Attunment via an Infernal Pack (Corporeal Players Guide P.28), the Sorcerer is no longer Hell-sworn by virtue of their Sorcery Attunment alone, and are now bound by their own Fate and Actions, Normally Fate has some claim to the Soul of a Sorcerer, but this Attunment frees the Sorcerer to the Damnation they deserve, True some Sorcerers have escaped the grip of Hell through this Attunment, but every year more and more damn themselves again through their own actions and Pacts made to gain more Power. This Attunment has bean lost for Centuries but was rediscovered at the turn of the Millennium by Sara the (Free) Lilim of Choice, at first the Princes of Hell where horrified by the concept of Freeing Hell-sworn until they realized almost always all they where doing was freeing them from any claim Fate had to them, oftern they where already damned by other means or would quickly damn them selves again. Since it's rediscovery it has quickly propagated amongst the Princes of Hell and selected favored servants, some Ethereals and even one or two Archangels, despite the disapproval of the likes of Dominic and Laurence. Symphonic Attunment (Corporeal) for 5 points a Sorcerer has become attuned to the true Symphony, though they can not hear it in all it's true glory at least they have cut through the Cacophony and if they have not damned themselves by other means are no longer Hell-sworn. Provided the Sorcerer is not Damned by other means they are subject to Interventions as a Normal Person or Grey Solder. Theurgy For 10 Points the Character has bean Initiated in to one of the Divine Mystic Arts practiced by Wise and Learned Men (and Women) of True Faith, it is much the same as Sorcery having the same basic requirements, except the Thergest is Willful and Pious (you must have the Will and the Faith to do the Lords work and wield this power) instead of Willful and Selfish, also they undergo a Theurgic Initiation instead of a Sorcerers one. A Theurgist is aligned with the forces of Heaven and receives Divine Interventions like a Solder of God or member of the Host. Should a Thirgest find themselves Damned they will be unable to use their Theurgic abilities until they can free themselves from Hells grip. Theurgic Skills and Rituals are very slimmer to Sorcerers ones but not the same and must be acquired separately, if the character practices both Sorcery and Theurgy and the Character has a Ritual in both it's Thurgic and Sorcerers forms they receive +1 to the CD just as they would for knowing the same song in two Realms. Banishment and Exorcism are almost universally practiced by the Theurgic Traditions, Focus (for it's protection Wards) is widely but not universally practiced, Command is exceeding Rare and normally only studied by the most advanced practitioners and Summoning is all but unheard of and heavily discouraged by Angelic Patrons (usually by Smiting those who try and study it).

05-24-2012, 05:10 PM	#4
Drop Bear Join Date: May 2012	Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules) buried in the text of the CPG (I'll find the page reference if you like) it sais that they take interventions like SoH & Demons, even if they get Initiated, it's a major check box on the the Damned side of the Karmic Ledger that you have to work off if you don't want to end up in hell once your done with your mortal span, Symphonic Attunment is a quick and easy (if the Sorcerer has 5 pts to spare) to sidestep that piece of Kama.

05-24-2012, 07:58 PM	#5
tHEhERETIC MIB Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Life imitates art--I'm in Pohang	Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules) When I put sorcery into my game I only had the CPG and not The Marches, and the references in the CPG are all over that book. Regretting that I shipped my dead tree copies out, but it was necessary. To me it came down to pg 46--there's one process to open up the sense to Hear, and a second process to Speak. The latter in most cases is a Symphonic Awakening, and that in most cases includes a clause swearing one's soul to a demon. Think of it as the fine print in a contract. The demon doesn't even have to be present, the better not to have that sticky question come up that the demon, against every other fiber of its nature, has to answer honestly. Just a bunch of guys standing around talking in arcane languages, invoking the demon, and that demon (Hatiphas--though I imagine she could send an underling) has an open invitation to show up and "bless" the poor initiate. Your attunement then has a limited use--a demon, almost certainly a Free Lilim, wants to make a sorcerer without chaining him down in any way at all. Pg. 74 sidebox suggests that such a thing exists, and suggests that an ethereal could do it too. Well, you did file that under celestial/ethereal, didn't you? Corporeal sounds like a Hellsworn old man's wet dream. What, I can reap all the benefits of a pact my whole life, then get a fellow sorcerer to remove the pact? I don't see Hell allowing such a ritual to survive, if they can help it. Theurgy seems to describe what a priest/exorcist would learn. To me it's simply sorcery, except instead of saying "I (the most important being in the Universe) tell you to go to Hell" he's saying "I in the name of the Lord..." It is a different attitude, significantly, and as such would change much of the ritual involved. I personally wouldn't +1 the CD in this case, based on my experience knowing bits of two different languages. It's far too easy to say "kudasai" in Korea and really offend someone doing so. __________________ Criminy...these two have enough issues, they can sell subscriptions! (ladyarcana55, in a PM)

05-24-2012, 10:59 PM	#6
Drop Bear Join Date: May 2012	Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules) Lets look at three Sorcerers "Bob" "Frank" & "Jen". "Bob" swears an Infernal Pact to gain his Sorcery Attunment, no two ways about it he has Karmicly seeking "Had Carnal Knowledge of the Diminutive Canine", he's going to Hell unless he finds true redemption. Symphonic Attunment is useless to him "Frank" went about getting his Sorcery Attunment the hard way through long and serious study and a Sorcerers Initiation, even if he's not that bad a person he's going to Hell because of it unless he is actively very good. Symphonic Attunment will wipe that Karmic Black Mark from his record and his post mortality destination will be based on the sum of his life's actions and choices. for guys like "Frank" most of the time it's just a case of an Infernal wiping Fares claim of a Soul based wholly on the practice of Sorcery and steeling said Souls back for their Princes. "Jen" is a Wicca Chick who gained her Attunment via a Pact with an Ethereal being, without Symphonic Attunment once she has spent some time in her patrons realm out in the Marches she will be sucked down in to Hell, with Symphonic Attunment she spends more time in her Patrons Realm before moving on to her true Karmic Reward (or Punishment). As to the +1 CD for knowing both the Sorcery and Theurgy rituals, it's not about knowing the languages, it's about knowing how the Symphony is supposed to work from separate perspectives and therefore being more clued in to how it really works, just like knowing diffrent realms of the same Song. Last edited by Drop Bear; 05-24-2012 at 11:03 PM.

05-25-2012, 12:03 AM	#7
ISNorden Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Madison, WI	Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules) Most of these are useful for my own heretical campaign, especially considering these differences: Heaven has an Archangel of the Mysteries (an Ofanite named Raziel; I forget the web link to his stats). He'd be the one to teach Theurgy to a few disciplined, knowledgeable and pious mortals; the Kabbalistic specialists in Jewish folklore would certainly side with God, not Lucifer. (My own campaign even has an ex-Pagan Sorceress turned Theurgist, after an unexpected Divine Intervention projected her into a vision of the Lower Heavens.) Since the War has three sides in this campaign, it stands to reason that some ethereal gods want magicians fighting for them...AND that a few in the still-active pantheons are able to do so. (Odin, with his affinity for hidden knowledge, might awaken a Sorcerer whose only spiritual loyalty is to Asgard. Other pagan gods with similar power and affinity might choose their own magician-followers, at the GM's option.) Unless they've been particularly selfish or cruel, a Sorcerer whose power doesn't come from Hell...doesn't automatically go to Hell for using most rituals. I say "most" because Gray and Theurgist characters shouldn't be learning to summon or enslave demons; the other rites may be good or evil depending on the user's intent. One minor change from the CPG rules: Non-demonic Sorcererers follow the Intervention rules for the side they actually chose. Divine Interventions, not Infernal, are better for a Theurgist; and Ethereal Interventions (333) are better for Gray/Pagan Sorcerers. (A magician whose powers come from Thoth, Odin, or the Wiccan Goddess is likely to get in trouble with both Celestial sides.) My only disagreement with the attunements as written: Corporeal Attunement strikes me as abusable ("Get out of Fate cheap") and hard to justify in game logic. (With no spiritual support, where's the Symphonic link coming from?) Otherwise, you did a decent job! __________________ Ingeborg S. Nordén Last edited by ISNorden; 05-25-2012 at 12:14 AM. Reason: added "no automatic damnation" rule

05-25-2012, 02:03 AM	#8
Drop Bear Join Date: May 2012	Re: Theurgy & Thaumaturgy (new Sorcery rules) Just the start, I've got some Focus Rituals coming and a few sample Rites and other odds & ends.