How to implement Melee Attack + QN Roll Affliction

[Nedorus]

Ok, this has been discussed in one form or another often, but somehow my search-fu is failing me today. I've literally gone too far down the rabbit hole and have lost my way ...

Here's what I'm trying to accomplish:

1. Attacker touches Defender (attack maneuver with active defense by defender)
2. Attacker rolls vs. QN
3. Defender defends using QN
4. The Defender suffers from attribute loss/gain, from a (dis-)advantage, etc.

My Problem is choosing the "correct" modifiers. I've tried a few and ended up with wildly different costs depending on choice.

Here are some of the additional challenges that make this difficult to grasp for me:

1. I want to be able to allow magic staffs, wands and other magic weapons to "touch"
2. I don't want the actual effect to depend on any damage caused
3. I'd like the "Defender" to be able to forfeit the defense rolls (Malediction comes to mind to avoid the QN defense), not defending against the melee attack would be easy
4. Ignoring DR (like for Malediction) would be a bit much imho, Follow-Up would be better here as DR is only ignored if "damage" penetrates.
5. Really, what I want is to add armor to the QN defense only when the Attacker failed to "touch" bare skin), making it useful to choose a hit-locations which are unprotected.
6. I’d like the effect to set in when parrying bare handed as the Defender is still being “touched” (this is not sooo important)
7. Some other modifiers like “Magical” and “Costs Fatigue” should go in as well

Here is one of my “builds”
Affliction 1 with the following modifiers:

• DX Penalty 1 (this acts a an example only, other things like (dis-)advantages may go here)
• Based on QN (this would make the Defender use QN instead of HT, right?)
• Requires QN Roll (this would make the Attacker need to roll in order to “activate” the power, right?)
• Follow-Up, Universal (this would make it follow ANY attack however mundane and it doesn't need to be further specified which attack, right? I also probably need to down-grade this to melee attacks bare-handed or with magic weapons like Staffs, Wands etc.; I was thinking to use the “Limited Enhancements” rule with roughly -80% making this +10% enhancement really)

As mentioned stuff like "costs fatigue" would be on top...

I've wrestled with stuff like "Melee Attack", Sense Based, Reversed (Touch), looked at Cosmic etc... Really I'm at a loss on how to do this...

Affliction needs "to hit", so I assume it's used via an attack maneuver with Innate Attack (?) skill.

Would I need the Melee Attack modifier to make it close combat? If so, which one? "No Parry", ok definitely, but Reach?

How About Malediction? I seems to be made just for such stuff but has components that really don't work for me. Like making it a concentrate instead of attack. Ignoring DR totally is, well ... rather too much. The Quick-Contest would be OK, though ...

...

Help ... please!
hahahah!

[mlangsdorf]

I'm not really sure what QN is, but from context it's a stat.

I think the rules legal way to do this is:
Universal melee attack (whatever necessary modifiers; Linked to Affliction +20%) [some cost]
Affliction 1 (Accessiblity (only on targets of universal melee attack) -40%; Linked to universal melee attack +20%; Maleditction +50%...) [some other cost]

The link means both attacks have to be used together but are a single maneuver. The Accessibility limitation means the Malediction doesn't take effect unless the melee attack hits (though it doesn't have to do damage).

I'd use Follow-Up, but Follow-up and Malediction are both penetration modifiers and can't be used on the same advantage.

A possibly simpler build might be:
Universal melee attack (whatever necessary modifiers) [some cost]
Affliction 1 (Cosmic: rules exception (follow-up and malediction) +50%; Follow-Up +whatever%; Malediction +50%) [some other cost]

The second build is simpler but possibly more expensive. It's also clearer.

A third way to do this would be:
Imbuement 3 [40]
Crippling Blow (Weapon) DX/VH+0 [8]
Stupefying Blow (Weapon) DX/VH+0 [8]

which would let you apply any physical or mental disadvantage to the target if you hit and damage them and they fail a modified HT check. See Power-Ups 1: Imbuements pp 4-7 and 10 for more details. It's possibly a Perk to change the target of the resistance roll for Stupefying Blow and Crippling Blow to some other attribute. But those two skills have other limitations and requirements so this might not be an ideal solution either.

[Nedorus]

Thanks for your answer.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I'm not really sure what QN is, but from context it's a stat.

Oh, sorry, that is Quintessence from Pyramid 3/120. Yes it's an attribute but any attribute would suit me at this point.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I think the rules legal way to do this is:
Universal melee attack (whatever necessary modifiers; Linked to Affliction +20%) [some cost]
Affliction 1 (Accessiblity (only on targets of universal melee attack) -40%; Linked to universal melee attack +20%; Maleditction +50%...) [some other cost]
The link means both attacks have to be used together but are a single maneuver.

What is 'universal melee attack'? I haven't come across that yet I think. Under a different name maybe?
I'm not sure what Link (B106, right?) would do here. The Attack (touching the defender in some way) is not an advantage. Unless 'universal melee attack' is an advantage of some kind which I don't understand. And if I choose the 10% Link version (have to be used together, then I can't punch an opponent (or hit him with a stick) without using the other Advantage?

Also, what does Malediction add to the mix here? I really don't see why that would be necessary here. To the contrary, I really don't want the "ignore DR" part of Malediction.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

The Accessibility limitation means the Malediction doesn't take effect unless the melee attack hits (though it doesn't have to do damage).

Accessibility is a very nice option
-x% only after a successful hit bare handed or with a magic weapon / staff / wand etc.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

A third way to do this would be:
Imbuement 3 [40]
Crippling Blow (Weapon) DX/VH+0 [8]
Stupefying Blow (Weapon) DX/VH+0 [8]

I'll check out the Imbuement ... I need to get Power-Ups 1 then ...

Thanks for your suggestions

Maybe for further clarification on what I'm trying to achieve: I want to move from "Spells as Skill" (Standard way of magic) to "Spell as Powers" but keep some of the mechanics of the "Melee Spells" (M11).

[mlangsdorf]

By universal melee attack, I meant whatever attack you were using to model the fists, wands, and staffs. But I was also misreading the question entirely.

You want to be able to cause afflictions at melee range, carried on an indeterminate melee attack. If the melee attack misses or is defended against, the affliction doesn't go off. If the attacker hits bare skin (DR 0), then DR doesn't help resist the affliction, but otherwise it does. I'm unclear if the melee damage counts when the affliction hits armor but I'm assuming not.

In that case, you're looking at:
Affliction (Linked to Melee attack +20%; Melee Only Cannot Parry Reach C,1,2 -20%, Destructive Parry* +10%) [11]

For a basic stun affliction that is linked to some other melee attack (fist, baton, staff, whatever) and affects the weapon or limb that parries it. Add additional modifiers to customize as needed: takes extra time, costs FP, whatever other conditions you want to inflict, etc.

* Destructive parry is from Power p 103 and means anything used to parry is damaged by the effect. Since stunning an inanimate object has no meaningful effect, this essentially means only unarmed parries are subjected to the destructive parry.

[Nedorus]

OK, thanks once again for your suggestions.

After weighing everything, doing some more googling I found that I had missed out on Thaumatology: Sorcery so I went and got that. After reading it I think it covers most of what I'm trying to do.
I'll try some tweaking and come back to post results for other with similar questions.

Cheers

[Nedorus]

Just to make sure my understanding of T:SOR is correct and I'm on the right track with my spell creation I would like to post and receive feedback on one of the spell builds:

I'm using Quintessence QN and power spells with QP instead of FP. Also I decided to add a QN roll to activate any Spell except those that already have a roll to activate, in which case it's moved to QN as well. Resistance is also on QN.
Ignore that for the moment if it adds confusion.

Keyword: Buff, Leveled
Full Cost: 70
Casting Roll: QN
Range: Touch
Duration: Indefinite

Statistics: Affliction 1 (Based on QN [+20%], Based on QN Own Roll[+20%], Costs Fatigue* 1 [-5%], Melee Attack Reach C, No Parry [-35%], Gives Advantage 'Altered Time Rate' [+450%], Gives Advantage 'Increased Basic Speed' [+150%])

Altered Time Rate 1 (Magical [-10%], Costs Fatigue 1, has Maintenance [-10%], Reduced Duration, 1/60 [-35%]) [45]

Increased Basic Speed (Magical [-10%], margin-based [x3]) [14]

* this should really be "Cost Quintessence Points 1" but priced the same I guess.


Here are my Questions and the thinking behind the design.

Questions:

1. Can an Affliction be packed like this with several advantages being afflicted on the target at the same time?
2. If 1) is OK, then is it done correctly by just creating two traits and entering their points x10% modifiers into the affliction?
3. Since I'm basing this all in T:SOR I need to factor in the "cost fatigue" somewhere but none of the example spells have it. It seems to be included in the -15% "sorcery-modifier", but there seems to be no "Under the Hood"-box where that is made explicit. Can someone please explain "where the cost fatigue goes".
4. My understanding from T:SOR is that the afflicted benefits would last for one minute and after that would need to be maintained (or left to end) by the caster. Correct?
5. If the former is correct, then it's 'all or nothing' on the maintenance, right? So I would not be able to maintain Increased Basic Speed and drop ATR. Correct?
6. The Idea behind Melee Attack can be seen from the original question. This is a "Health" spell and all health spells should be touch. I decided to skip the "'hit him with a magic-stick' to count as touch" part. My understanding from Sorcery Buffs is, that if the subject is willing I don't need to roll to hit (would still need a QN-roll to activate the spell by my rules though). Furthermore if I can touch "bare skin" then the target can waive the resistance. If I can only touch armor then the target HAS to resists subtracting DR. Additionally, an unwilling target can resist automatically. Right?
7. The Idea behind this 'Altered Time Rate'-build is that it needs 1 FP (yes, that's right it shouldn't be QP) every second. So I reduced it's time by 1/60 (assuming the one minute from above this makes it one second) and add the "costs fatigue, has maintenance" to it. Is this the way to do it? I want the TARGET to pay for this, not the caster!
8. Going deeper into this: What happens when the caster ends the spell before the target runs out of FP... can the target keep the buff? I think no.
9. How about vice versa? When the target wants to end the buff by not paying the upkeep, what happens? Does the whole spell end? Does only the ATR-part go dormant until the whole spell ends?
10. [Edit]And as a final question: when / where is the x3 multiplier for margin-based added? Psionic Powers p.13 states "This triples the cost of the enhancement". So I think it should go into the affliction, not into the underlying advantage being used. Therefor my above calculation should result in 5P for the 'Increased Basic Speed' not 14 and thus the modifier for this in the affliction should be +150% instead of 140%, right?

Any additional feedback / input to clarify the T:SOR (incl. Buff and Melee Attacks) is greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[Edit] Sorry for the long post

P.S.: are there no smileys here? (;_;)

[mlangsdorf]

Partial answers to some of your questions:
1. See Body of Wood (T:SOR p 23) for a canonical buff spell that uses a single affliction is give the target a meta-trait made of advantages and disadvantages.
2. I think so.
3. See "Alternate rituals" on T:SOR p 7.
4. Sorcery buffs have Fixed Duration and last for their specified duration and can neither be maintained nor dispelled early (T:SOR p 8).
5. Even on an indefinite duration spell, you can't drop parts of the Affliction early (unless the spell has Selective Area, arguably) and even if you could, you get no discount on the FP cost of the maintenance.
6. There's no roll to hit a friendly target with a melee range buff, but no one can be buffed against their will and friendly and willing targets still are forced to resist the buff, with their armor bonus, if the spell doesn't target their unarmored body parts.
7?
8. The caster chooses to maintain buffs, not the target. If the buff has an indefinite duration and can be maintained, anyway.
9. I don't think the target can choose not to end the buff early and must pay any FP costs until the spell ends. Anyone can choose to not be affected by a buff at casting time but after that, it's out of their control.
10. Margin based triples the cost of enhancement modifier on the affliction. So Affliction (Extra HT +1 +100%) costs 20 CP, while Affliction (Extra HT +1 Margin Based +300%) costs 40 FP. So: Affliction (Better Basic Speed Margin Based +570%) where Better Basic Speed is Basic Speed +1.00 (Magical -10%) [19].

[Nedorus]

Thanks one again for your support. It's greatly appreiated.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

3. See "Alternate rituals" on T:SOR p 7.

Yes, I understand that. Also p. 5 states:

Originally Posted by T:SOR5

Unless otherwise stated, all spells cost 1 FP

However, neither the Sorcery Talent nor the Sourcerous Empowerment explicitly have a game mechanic added to provide for this. Some spells (e.g. Minor Healing p.17) explicitly reduce the fatigue point cost to arrive at the "1FP rule". However, most are based on advantages that do NOT require FP. But they don't add "costs fatigue". Shouldn't that be the case though?

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

4. Sorcery buffs have Fixed Duration and last for their specified duration and can neither be maintained nor dispelled early (T:SOR p 8).

As per that page only spells of "Duration: Indefinite" can (must) be maintained.
While typing up and researching the question how I arrive at the "duration" (Indefinite, Fixed, Instantaneous, Permanent, Truly Permanent) I learned this:

Originally Posted by B36

Advantages that can be switched on and off (such as Insubstantiality) are automatically “on” for one minute per point by which the victim fails his HT roll, and are not under the subject’s control

I had totally forgotten about this!
So basically if it's an affliction carrying a such an advantage then I have to add "fixed duration" and "reduced duration 1/3" on it if I want to make is Duration: Indefinite (maintainable). Otherwise it's just a variable length "fixed duration" spell which depends on the margin of success.
I'm not sure how to handle "always on" advantages in this case... Duration: Permanent I guess?

I think now I see the light at the end of the "how to set duration"-tunnel...

Basically i take the duration of the underlying ability (affliction, afflicted or other) and its special rules and can derive which duration I end up with. If I don't like what I end up with, I CAN add time-modifiers to the underlying ability to change this in any direction. Feels right...

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

9. I don't think the target can choose not to end the buff early and must pay any FP costs until the spell ends. Anyone can choose to not be affected by a buff at casting time but after that, it's out of their control.

This is interesting, as this could lead to some pretty interesting (or rather ugly) results with the target going unconscious and ultimately dying of FP deprivation. (x _ x)

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

10. Margin based triples the cost of enhancement modifier on the affliction. So Affliction (Extra HT +1 +100%) costs 20 CP, while Affliction (Extra HT +1 Margin Based +300%) costs 40 FP. So: Affliction (Better Basic Speed Margin Based +570%) where Better Basic Speed is Basic Speed +1.00 (Magical -10%) [19].

Yupp it's how I thought.

Thanks always for the support!

[Nedorus]

[EDIT]I'm putting this into another thread to make things more relevant for others.

OK, maybe I haven't understood it yet (> _ <)
I was just reading Complex Illusion (T:SOR18). It's based on Powers Illusion which states:

Originally Posted by P94

These persist for as long as you concentrate.

and adds the Independence modifier to it. This doesn't say anything about duration, different time etc. It sais

Originally Posted by P95

"You don’t need to concentrate"

and

Originally Posted by P95

"you can hand off control to your subconscious"

From this I conclude that such an Illusion (by RAW) becomes permanent (or rather until I loose my subconsciousness (=death or maybe coma)).
How does the author arrive at Duration: Indefinite? How is is not permanent Duration: Permanent? Or maybe Duration: Permanent until Caster dies?

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Nedorus

However, neither the Sorcery Talent nor the Sourcerous Empowerment explicitly have a game mechanic added to provide for this. Some spells (e.g. Minor Healing p.17) explicitly reduce the fatigue point cost to arrive at the "1FP rule". However, most are based on advantages that do NOT require FP. But they don't add "costs fatigue". Shouldn't that be the case though?

The Sorcerous Power Modifier explicitly includes "Costs 1 FP" - see T:SOR p 13 where it is helpfully hidden in the "Inventing New Spells" box.

Originally Posted by Nedorus

So basically if it's an affliction carrying a such an advantage then I have to add "fixed duration" and "reduced duration 1/3" on it if I want to make is Duration: Indefinite (maintainable). Otherwise it's just a variable length "fixed duration" spell which depends on the margin of success.

I'm not sure how to handle "always on" advantages in this case... Duration: Permanent I guess?

Normally, Afflictions last for minute per MoS/MoF, and Extended or Limited Duration change the time period per point of margin. Fixed Duration then says that the margin is always 3.

If you have an "always on" self-buff such as Damage Resistance, you just have it until you use a different Alternate Ability, unless it has Costs FP, in which case you have it until you run out of FP or use a different Alternate Ability. See Locksmith on T:SOR p 22 for an example.

Originally Posted by Nedorus

Basically i take the duration of the underlying ability (affliction, afflicted or other) and its special rules and can derive which duration I end up with. If I don't like what I end up with, I CAN add time-modifiers to the underlying ability to change this in any direction. Feels right...

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Nedorus

From this I conclude that such an Illusion (by RAW) becomes permanent (or rather until I loose my subconsciousness (=death or maybe coma)).
How does the author arrive at Duration: Indefinite?

Well, you can only create 1 illusion at a time, but if you really want to spend 35-50 CP for "talking Mona Lisa hologram forever" then you can do that.

In Sorcery, Complex Illusion has an FP cost, so it's a maintained spell with an indefinite duration that costs 1 FP per minute. And that's because it's an always-on advantage that has been modified with Costs FP, and you need to repay the FP every minute.