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Old 03-11-2024, 07:30 PM   #21
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Originally Posted by pawsplay View Post
What if you have multiple weapon skills?
Then the cost of Rapid Strike (or DWA too) is multiplied by the number of Skills while Extra Attack remains at the same cost. That gives you one extra attack with any Skill and possible combination of limbs and weapons you have.

Asa person who always prepares his characters for combat in more than one mode I don't always take Extra Attack but I _never_ mess around with Rapid Strike or DWA either. They're a waste of cp and game time spent on math to me.
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Old 03-11-2024, 11:42 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Generally speaking, no, Extra Attack isn't worth it.
It is if you either want supreme flexibility of attack combos, or you really hate math.

But like everyone else has said, as long as you're not trying to use more than one or two skills in combat (and you don't mind math), Extra Attack isn't worth it. Especially if you've got Weapon Master or Trained By A Master.
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Old 03-12-2024, 02:34 AM   #23
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

I think I talked about this at some point. But the ideas that others have point forward is mostly spot on. 24 points in skill is -3 to target's defenses (Deceptive Attack), +3 to your Parry, or just +6 to hit. Extra Attack is "I get to do something at full skill" - and that IS useful. But skill is just better. Now using two skills seems like an advantage of Extra Attack - and it is. Judo Throw, Grapple and stab, all that stuff is awesome. But you can just spend FP to get Flurry of Blows on a Rapid Strike and be at only -3 to skill. So if you're using two skills in particular often enough you could split the points and still be okay.

Another thing is the difficulty of a skill. Which, I'll grant is obvious, but still: Easy skills 24 points = +7 to skill, Average +6, Hard is +5, and Very Hard (which I don't think there are any such skills) is +4. So a knife-fighter will get more impact than say, a whip user.

Another problem is that buying off the penalty for a Rapid Strike for one skill should probably be possible. You can after all buy off the penalty for a Dual-Weapon Attack. That's only 7 points for an additional attack - 4 points if you require it to basically be a Flurry of Blows with a FP expenditure. Obviously, this would be a cinematic technique on par with Dual-Weapon Attack

And, as noted. "Very Rapid Strike" unlocked from from have a cinematic trait lets you get even more attacks at a fairly cheap rate. But given that it is from a cinematic trait and thus not available for all games makes it a bit of a wash.

Combinations seem like they should give insight too, but they are a tad fiddly. I kind of feel like they are the realistic version of a rapid strike technique.

One final thing to consider is the mindset of the gamer themselves. Most gamers will build characters that do *one* thing and do it as well as they can on their budget. So you might not see multiple skills from Thog the Barbarian. Thog might just do Thog things and get Thoggish when dealing with Thog-World Problems. Thog-Life. This really means that Extra Attack often is working for one skill simply by playstyle default. (Of course, if you add said limitation you're probably also adding Multi-Strike much like how Dungeon Fantasy assumes Extra Attack works.) This tends to be the result of how a GM runs things. The more involved the rules and requirement of tactics in combat the more versatility a player will desire to increase their options and thus chances of winning.

I guess all of this is to say that Extra Attack definitely has its place, but it can be quickly overrun in a campaign by high skill, extra options, etc.

So if it were "fixed" how would I fix it? First, I'd keep the price the same. Yes. 25 points. But I'd add a few benefits:
  • Attacks against the same target result in a cumulative -1 to their defenses per attack beyond the first.
  • Attack maneuvers from Extra Attack can be traded one for one for Ready maneuvers.
  • The Multi-Strike enhancement is implicit in the ability. Completely ignore the one attack/limb/etc. thing.

That right there seems more equitable to 25 points to me. Guess I could be wrong though.
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Old 03-12-2024, 06:10 AM   #24
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
So if it were "fixed" how would I fix it? First, I'd keep the price the same. Yes. 25 points. But I'd add a few benefits:
  • Attacks against the same target result in a cumulative -1 to their defenses per attack beyond the first.
  • Attack maneuvers from Extra Attack can be traded one for one for Ready maneuvers.
  • The Multi-Strike enhancement is implicit in the ability. Completely ignore the one attack/limb/etc. thing.

That right there seems more equitable to 25 points to me. Guess I could be wrong though.
That looks like a good fix to me. Functionally, it's Dual Weapon Attack at x5 cost due to applying to all skills (which would normally be x3 as a Wildcard Technique), giving the special option of being able to swap out an attack for a Ready, letting you do all the attacks with the same limb/weapon, and being stackable. I think that's all well-justified. For a more limited version, I'd say one that only works for a single skill should be at -40% (net [15], so x3 compared to DWA) rather than the default -20%; if you want it to only cover a specific combination, the Single Attack -60% Limitation would probably work (at net [10] that's only [1] more than a two-attack Combination, although it gets progressively further from that price as you get more levels of it).
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Old 03-12-2024, 06:22 AM   #25
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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That looks like a good fix to me. Functionally, it's Dual Weapon Attack at x5 cost due to applying to all skills (which would normally be x3 as a Wildcard Technique), giving the special option of being able to swap out an attack for a Ready, letting you do all the attacks with the same limb/weapon, and being stackable. I think that's all well-justified. For a more limited version, I'd say one that only works for a single skill should be at -40% (net [15], so x3 compared to DWA) rather than the default -20%; if you want it to only cover a specific combination, the Single Attack -60% Limitation would probably work (at net [10] that's only [1] more than a two-attack Combination, although it gets progressively further from that price as you get more levels of it).
That's good, V. I like that. :-)
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Old 03-12-2024, 07:16 AM   #26
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
  • Attack maneuvers from Extra Attack can be traded one for one for Ready maneuvers.
  • The Multi-Strike enhancement is implicit in the ability. Completely ignore the one attack/limb/etc. thing.
Kromm (back in 2007) suggested Extra Ready at the same cost as Extra Attack. "Extra (Ready Or Attack)" is a little more flexible, but should be less than double cost. I suppose from a strictly gamist point of view, the option should cost more than either one alone, but I'm okay with just trading Attack for Ready just as a universal houserule, no Advantages required.

These are all sub-cases of Altered Time Rate, which could be called "Extra Maneuver". Reverse engineering the "x5 cost of one option covers all options" not-a-rule suggests 20 points for the single-option version of Extra Maneuver (e.g., Extra Attack) rather than 25, so with that slender thread of justification, 25 for Extra Attack or Ready is about right. EA was just a little overpriced to start with.

Kromm also mentioned that Multi-Strike as well as Single Skill was implicit in Extra Attack in the DF series, the latter because of the one-trick-pony tendency of that style, and having the two together counterbalance the cost.
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Old 03-12-2024, 07:25 AM   #27
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Kromm (back in 2007) suggested Extra Ready at the same cost as Extra Attack. "Extra (Ready Or Attack)" is a little more flexible, but should be less than double cost. I suppose from a strictly gamist point of view, the option should cost more than either one alone, but I'm okay with just trading Attack for Ready just as a universal houserule, no Advantages required.
I'm aware. It appears in GURPS Monster Hunters Power-Ups 1.

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
These are all sub-cases of Altered Time Rate, which could be called "Extra Maneuver". Reverse engineering the "x5 cost of one option covers all options" not-a-rule suggests 20 points for the single-option version of Extra Maneuver (e.g., Extra Attack) rather than 25, so with that slender thread of justification, 25 for Extra Attack or Ready is about right. EA was just a little overpriced to start with.
More or less.

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Kromm also mentioned that Multi-Strike as well as Single Skill was implicit in Extra Attack in the DF series, the latter because of the one-trick-pony tendency of that style, and having the two together counterbalance the cost.
Yes. Also aware. That's where I got the information. :-)
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Old 03-12-2024, 10:24 AM   #28
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

Honestly, the fix is to not let people put a bazillion points in a single weapon skill; extra attack is by no means the only advantage that is inefficient compared to just putting more points in your primary weapon skill.
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Old 03-12-2024, 11:17 AM   #29
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Honestly, the fix is to not let people put a bazillion points in a single weapon skill; extra attack is by no means the only advantage that is inefficient compared to just putting more points in your primary weapon skill.
Eh, if you implement a skill cap (hard or soft), all that means is that only those at (the cusp of) the cap will bother with Extra Attack. If an Advantage is a poorer investment than just pumping skill, the solution is to either reduce the price of it or modify how it works. Gunslinger got the latter treatment, making it actually worthwhile rather than a waste of points, and while Extra Attack isn't quite as bad as that was, a similar treatment will help make it more competitive so you don't have to rely on fairly heavy-handed methods like skill caps. I think Christopher R. Rice's suggestion does a good job of that.

(Of course, there's the related issue that GURPS accidentally encourages only having a few combat skills, when realistic fighting men throughout history typically had a lot; as it stands, someone who has only bothered investing in Broadsword has a huge advantage in skill over someone who has invested in Broadsword, Axe/Mace, Spear/Staff, Polearm, Flail, and Shield to decent levels, when it's probably more realistic for the former to have only a small to moderate advantage in skill. But that's a discussion for a different thread.)
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Old 03-12-2024, 12:46 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
So if it were "fixed" how would I fix it?
My fix was to drop it to 20 points and make Multi-Strike implicit. I already allow Attacks to be traded for Readies, so...
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