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Old 03-11-2024, 01:21 AM   #11
Gef
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Originally Posted by Jelsa23 View Post
My weapon skill for my rapier is at like 22 right now, so not sure if I should up it more. My Judo is only 13 though, but I always forget to use anything even remotely related to it. Do you know of combos or attacks that could utilize both so I haven't just wasted skill points?
Judo Throw if successful puts opponent prone, at -4 to do everything including defend against your sword.

Without EA, you throw him, and he gets up before you stab. Alternately try Rapid Strike, but that's -6 to Judo because Weapon Master doesn't halve the penalty. Alternately All-Out Attack, but that forfeits your defense. Alternately throw from a Judo parry, but that's way lower than your fencing parry. Alternately armed grapple at -2, establish a lock, throw from lock, and then stab, but that takes 4 attacks which you'll do over 2 turns allowing foe a chance to break the grapple or just kill you before you finish.

With EA, try the throw. If it fails, attack standing foe like normal, which may work well but I assume you're worried about guys just as good as you. If throw succeeds, foe is already under penalty so instead of rapid strike call shot to knee (to keep him down) or artery to finish him.
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Old 03-11-2024, 02:36 AM   #12
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

You can also layer in ways to buy the cost down. The last time I played a character with Extra Attack, he was a martial artist who'd throw a combination sequence: feint with the right hand, strike with the left hand, kick with the right foot. Using Extra Attack only as part of that sequence was pretty cheap, and since it was my go-to maneuver, it worked pretty well.
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Old 03-11-2024, 07:09 AM   #13
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

Generally speaking, no, Extra Attack isn't worth it. If you intend to use 5 or more distinct combinations of skills, if you want to be able to split a Weapon Master-enhanced skill into a Rapid Strike while also using one of at least two different skills for an additional attack (or just one if you're splitting your main attack into 3 or more attacks), or if you want to combine two skills that the GM doesn't allow for you to buy a Dual Weapon Attack Technique for the combination, then it can be worth it.

The reason is that referenced Dual Weapon Attack Technique, above, which can mix skills - you could have DWA (Broadsword and Shield) to be able to strike with your sword and then step in and bind with your shield (or do a shield bash), DWA (Rapier and Judo) to do a Judo Throw and then immediately stab the prone foe, etc. As each instance of DWA costs [5] to buy up to full, that means you need to buy 5 of them to equal the [25] of Extra Attack.

As indicated above, things are a bit different if you wanted to be able to, say, Judo Throw your target and then stab them twice, as DWA and Rapid Strike are mutually-exclusive. Even if they weren't, that extra -6 (arguably -5 based on how Combinations treat it) would apply to your Judo skill (also Rapier, but it gets changed to only -3 thanks to WM) and call for [24] (or [20]) to buy off, at which point a case could be made for going with Extra Attack instead (although probably only if you intend to do this kind of mixing with more than one skill; if it's just for Judo, [5] for DWA and [24] for +6 Judo - boosting your Judo Parry and your ability to fight unarmed - is arguably worth the additional [4] over just buying Extra Attack). But unless the GM opts to allow DWA and RS to stack, it's simply not an option.

Finally, some GM's would be reluctant to allow certain DWA combinations - Broadsword and Innate Attack (for striking with your sword and your eyebeams) is a good example, and mixing a kick in with a punch or sword strike may be a no-go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gef View Post
Alternately throw from a Judo parry, but that's way lower than your fencing parry.
The Special Setup Perk would help here - Special Setup (Rapier Parry->Judo Throw) lets you throw the target using Judo after Parrying their attack using Rapier. But throwing after a Judo (Rapier in this case) Parry still calls for an attack, so you'd still need to split up your attack into Judo Throw and Rapier Thrust.
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Old 03-11-2024, 07:29 AM   #14
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Originally Posted by Jelsa23 View Post
Thank you! I also forgot I had weapon master if that changes anything
If you are a Weapon Master I would take a hard look at Dual Weapon Technique.

Basically it gives 2 attacks (in one attack 'slot') for a pre-defined (and learned) weapon/attack set.

For me it was Dual Weapon Attack Rapier/Rapier.

As I worked the technique up I was enjoying running about with 2 attacks and full fencing defenses.

Sometimes I would Rapid Strike in addition. However since I also had the Targeted Attack technique (Rapier/Eye) I would often attack each eye at -4 or -5 (away from books and can remember max buydown OTOH).

I my opinion Dual Weapon Attack was the best 7 or 8 points I ever spent.
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Last edited by Witchking; 03-11-2024 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 03-11-2024, 07:33 AM   #15
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
very good post that I am not repeating
Ninja'd me by about 10 mins. I guess it is what I deserve for being a spaz typist.
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Old 03-11-2024, 01:19 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

Extra Attack is terrifying. In most fights, you want to go first, and never get attacked. Extra Attack gives you an extra chance to win the fight.
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Old 03-11-2024, 02:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

Yeah, but you can get one extra attack for 6 levels of skill (3 if you have WM), which may be a better bargain. Of course, all the extra skill in the world is not going to buy you more than one extra attack.
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Old 03-11-2024, 02:40 PM   #18
pawsplay
 
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

What if you have multiple weapon skills?
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Old 03-11-2024, 05:00 PM   #19
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Yeah, but you can get one extra attack for 6 levels of skill (3 if you have WM), which may be a better bargain. Of course, all the extra skill in the world is not going to buy you more than one extra attack.
Martial Arts allows for stacking Rapid Strike penalties - -6 to get 1 extra attack (two total), -12 to get 2 extra attacks (three total), -18 to get 3 extra attacks (four total), etc. And that's still halved for WM/TbaM, for -3, -6, and -9, respectively. The penalty applies to all the attacks, as normal for Rapid Strike. Note, however, that attacks gained from Extra Attack or using All Out (Double) Attack are unaffected, but also cannot be used for Rapid Strikes - a character with Extra Attack 2 and WM could attack 4 times at +0/+0/-3/-3, 5 times at +0/+0/-6/-6/-6, 6 times at +0/+0/-9/-9/-9/-9, etc, but those first two +0's can never be split off on their own. Which has always struck me as really weird, but I assume there's some reason behind it.
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Last edited by Varyon; 03-11-2024 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 03-11-2024, 05:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is Extra Attack worth it?

Another nice thing about going Dual Weapons is the penalties for Parrying apply separately for each hand.

So as a Weapon Master with Rapier/Rapier DWA my defensive rotation was:

Parry #1 Right hand Parry at 0
Parry #2 Left hand Parry at 0
Parry #3 Right hand Parry at -1
Parry #4 Left hand Parry at -1

etc...

Cross Parry was an option for heavier weapons with Dodge as the fallback for Ridiculously heavy weapons.

Never felt unhappy about the defensive options.
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