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Old 05-25-2020, 09:24 AM   #11
RobW
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
As it is, I don't see why every wizard does spend 2 IQ on Whip talent.
Yes, this is what hurts my psyche. I had a whip wizard and it became clear this was the perfect weapon for wizards. So why weren't all wizards carrying whips? That left our campaign world with two unpleasant alternatives:

1. A campaign where in fact most all wizards do carry whips. The reaction there is, Ugh this is not the fantasy world we signed up for.

2. A campaign where, for some reason, the mercenaries of the world have had, for generations, a collective cognitive failure and not realised the value of wizard whips. The reaction there is, ok, let's just not think about it.

We went with (2) and after that campaign petered out we just pretended that whips were not an option
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:02 AM   #12
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

The only 'negative' real experience I'm hearing sounds like it boils down to a character who is kind of secondary to the party but you can remember a couple of times when she achieved something noteworthy, and enthusiastic fun for the players. I'm not getting the down side.
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:18 AM   #13
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

I've submitted a scenario with a whip wizard adversary in the hope that the players will recognize this as a sign that he is a frustrated sadist and exploit this weakness.

But then I had to send a princess on her deathbed to rescue the players in a different scenario who couldn't see the clue leaning against the wall.
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Old 05-25-2020, 11:20 AM   #14
RobW
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
The only 'negative' real experience I'm hearing sounds like it boils down to a character who is kind of secondary to the party but you can remember a couple of times when she achieved something noteworthy, and enthusiastic fun for the players. I'm not getting the down side.
What I was trying to get at above was that it was a genuine negative experience for all of us, as we all knew that rationally speaking all wizards should have whips, and yet none of us wanted to play in such a world.

It wasn't game breaking in the sense that no could ever figure out how to defeat a wizard with a whip. It was demoralising, for lack of a better word.
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Old 05-25-2020, 11:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

Whip Wizard suggestion:
ST 8, DX 13, IQ 11
Whip(1d-1), Silver Dagger/Staff II(1d-1/1d)
Knife, Literacy, Whip
Aid, Drain Strength, Illusion, Rope, Staff II

Knock the foe over with the whip then stab them with the dagger.

The only pity it that he can't cast an illusion double of himself wielding a whip. (Something to put XP towards...)
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Old 05-25-2020, 12:02 PM   #16
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

ST 10
DX 13 (16)
IQ 9
Bow, MW III, any other talents you like
Horse Bow: 2x turn, adjDX 16.

You're dead, probably on the first turn, even if you dodge.
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:24 PM   #17
Skarg
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

Whip, Lasso, Bolas and Net are all broken, in roughly that order of severity of problem, because the rules aren't developed enough. This has been discussed many times here on the forums. The core problem is that they cause any target to fall down immediately and automatically when hit, which only takes the attacker into account.
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Old 05-25-2020, 02:56 PM   #18
tomc
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
What I was trying to get at above was that it was a genuine negative experience for all of us, as we all knew that rationally speaking all wizards should have whips, and yet none of us wanted to play in such a world.
I gotta go with Lars on this. Rationally speaking, everybody should be driving a Toyota Camry (or whatever Consumer Reports is recommending these days). But people never seem to agree on what's optimal, or choose it even when they do agree. Whip Wizards are just too weird for them to exist in my world, so it doesn't bother me that they don't.. They'd make a neat gimmick for a villain, but not more than once.

But lots of people think differently.

Don't allow intervening characters, and give the target a 3d saving roll to avoid falling. Or maybe the whip can't both damage and trip the target, and the attacker has to choose before they roll? It's hard for me to see how a whip can cut a target and still wrap it up, and vice versa.
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:05 PM   #19
Skarg
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

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Don't allow intervening characters, and give the target a 3d saving roll to avoid falling.
Yes, this is an adequate fix, though it may also need some limits based on the size and ST of the thing someone's trying to knock down with a whip/lasso/bolas/net.


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Originally Posted by tomc View Post
Or maybe the whip can't both damage and trip the target, and the attacker has to choose before they roll? It's hard for me to see how a whip can cut a target and still wrap it up, and vice versa.
I don't think the rules intend the whip to be able to be used to do damage and also to be used like a lasso, so I think that's already covered.
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:42 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

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I don't think the rules intend the whip to be able to be used to do damage and also to be used like a lasso, so I think that's already covered.
Thanks, I misread that second paragraph in the rules under whip.
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