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Old 12-09-2021, 11:47 AM   #1
Kallatari
 
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Default Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability

I’m trying to figure out how Cost Fatigue interacts with other modifiers, and the exact effects on an ability. Let’s start with Sharp Claws [5] for the trait of this discussion, to which I’ll do different builds, some with and without Cost Fatigue.
1. Sharp Claws (Switchable, +10%) [6]: I have sharp claws I can retract/extract at will, no FP cost.

2. Sharp Claws (Cost Fatigue 1, -5%) [5]: This means that I don’t have claws until I spend a FP, at which point they come out. I need to spend 1 FP each minute to maintain the claws or they disappear. I can voluntarily have the claws end (disappear), but then it costs me another 1 FP to bring them back again.

3. Sharp Claws (Cost Fatigue 1, -5%; Switchable, +10%) [6]: I interpret this as I don’t have claws until I spend 1 FP. Then I have claws that I can retract/extract at will for 1 minute, but I can extend that duration by spending 1 FP each minute.

4. Sharp Claws (Cost Fatigue 1, -5%; Maximum Duration, 1 hour, -10%) [5] : I see this as having two possible interpretations:
a) I spend 1 FP, and I have claws that will last for one hour. Because of the maximum duration, it is no longer considered an always on trait, and therefore there is no maintenance cost.

b) I spend 1 FP, and I need to continue to spend 1 FP each minute to maintain the ability, but I can’t maintain it for longer than 1 hour.

Regardless of whatever option is determined to be RAW, how would you then build the other option?
5. Sharp Claws (Cost Fatigue 1, -5%; Maximum Duration, 1 hour, -10%; Switchable, +10%) [5]: As above, but while the duration lasts, I can retract/extract my claws at will. Same two options, and same question: How do I built the other option?
Now, the trait I’m actually trying to design that triggered all of this came when adding in an Alternative Ability into the mix. I want a trait that, for 1 FP (i.e., Cost Fatigue 1, -5%), I have claws for 1 hour (i.e., Maximum Duration, -10%) that are extractable/retractable (i.e., Switchable, +10%) that I can alternate length between Sharp Claws [5] and Talons [8]. There should be no maintenance cost.

Presumably, I want something like this:
6. Sharp Claws (Alternate Ability, x1/5; Cost Fatigue 1, -5%; Maximum Duration, 1 hour, -10%; Switchable, +10%) [1]; Talons (Cost Fatigue 1, -5%; Maximum Duration, 1 hour, -10%; Switchable, +10%) [8]. Total Cost: 9
a) I spend 1 FP and have both Sharp Claws and Talons – but only one at a time - for 1 hour, and can switch between them freely

b) I spend 1 FP and have either Claws or Talons for 1 hour, and but switching between them cost 1 FP each time.
And of course, depending on how we answered previous questions above, does it also cost 1 FP every minute?

And as before, regardless of which option is interpreted to be RAW, how do I build the other options (4 possible options here when you look at the FP cost to switch and FP cost to maintain combinations)?
My thoughts to date, for the Cost FP to maintain vs Cost FP once, I’ve been playing around that the cost to maintain remains even with Maximum Duration, and the way to have a one-time activation cost is to create the trait as an Affliction with Self-Only, -50%, and therefore the cost is only to activate a lingering Affliction (so no maintenance). That unfortunately tends to make the ability cost +5 to +10 points more expensive than if it was the underlying trait with no FP cost at all, so I don’t particularly like that method and am looking for other alternatives.

For the Alternative Ability FP cost to switch between the two, I’m wondering if the solution is something along the lines of “only add Cost Fatigue to one of the traits” to not pay when switching, and add it to both to pay when switching. However, should there not be some sort of repercussion to the Maximum Duration (i.e., does it start over when you switch?)? Or do you also leave it out of the alternatives?

As always, I'm happy to hear everyone's thoughts on how they would interpret the builds and build the alternative versions.


[Please Note: I realize that Sharp Claws is effectively a lesser version of Talons that only gives you cut damage instead of cut or imp. You therefore could technically create a special Accessibility or other limitation to Talons to solve the above problem. But this discussion is not about finding a build for that specific ability, but rather about understanding the build and how to replicate it for other traits. There are also other similar limitations that can come into play, such as Limited Use instead of Maximum Duration, so again understanding the logic behind them is the goal].

Last edited by Kallatari; 12-10-2021 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Fixed cost of Switchable from +20% to +10%
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Old 12-09-2021, 12:56 PM   #2
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability

Adding Costs FP automatically makes it Switchable so you do not need that modifier.
Not sure on the FP with Maximum Duration but I know its been answered before.
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Old 12-09-2021, 01:12 PM   #3
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Default Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Adding Costs FP automatically makes it Switchable so you do not need that modifier.
Not sure on the FP with Maximum Duration but I know its been answered before.
I believe Costs FP makes it switchable in terms of "it's active when you pay for it, inactive when you don't" - I believe you would indeed need Switchable if you want "you pay for it, then can freely turn it on or off during the duration." No idea how Costs FP and Maximum Duration should interact - option 2 seems the most likely, however.

Another option for building the trait is to do it the way Sorcery would - an Affliction (Benefaction?) that grants the target Talons (Switchable) + Sharp Claws (Switchable; Alternate Ability) for 1 hour, using Fixed Duration (so it lasts 3 minutes rather than being dependent on MoF/MoS), enough Extended Duration to last for a full hour (that's right between 10x +40% and 30x +60%, so 20x +50% could be justified), and Costs FP so you have to burn 1 FP to "cast" it. That would let you grant it to anyone, including yourself, so a Limitation that it can only be used on you would be appropriate. That's all pretty clunky, honestly, but at least it's doable... although I suspect you'd end up actually paying more for this ability than you would to just have those claws without any FP cost and/or maximum duration.
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Old 12-09-2021, 05:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability

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Originally Posted by Kallatari View Post
3. Sharp Claws (Cost Fatigue 1, -5%; Switchable, +20%) [6]: I interpret this as I don’t have claws until I spend 1 FP. Then I have claws that I can retract/extract at will for 1 minute, but I can extend that duration by spending 1 FP each minute.
Almost. Switchable is a +10% Enhancement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallatari View Post
4. Sharp Claws (Cost Fatigue 1, -5%; Maximum Duration, 1 hour, -10%) [5] : I see this as having two possible interpretations:
a) I spend 1 FP, and I have claws that will last for one hour. Because of the maximum duration, it is no longer considered an always on trait, and therefore there is no maintenance cost.

b) I spend 1 FP, and I need to continue to spend 1 FP each minute to maintain the ability, but I can’t maintain it for longer than 1 hour.

Regardless of whatever option is determined to be RAW, how would you then build the other option?
The RAW version is "b".

Under normal circumstances, I would say that "a" would not be worth getting into, and handwave it, or say the character could take it as a power quirk "exerting claws" or some such... There isn't always RAW for a point cost for every variation.

But you want an example and to do some math, so let's party! There is an optional rule for Limited Enhancements, but not one for enhancing or limiting limitations the same way. But we can pretend there is!

A power "Use" is one minute with costs fatigue, so we can apply Extended Duration to that. 60x falls between 30x and 100x, so that's +80%, which we flip because we're enhancing a limitation, and we get Costs FP per hour at -1% per FP.
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Old 12-10-2021, 11:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability

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Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
Almost. Switchable is a +10% Enhancement.
Sigh. Yes it is. Thankfully doesn't change the purpose of this discussion. But I will fix it in my original post.
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Old 12-10-2021, 11:27 AM   #6
Kallatari
 
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Default Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Another option for building the trait is to do it the way Sorcery would - an Affliction (Benefaction?) that grants the target Talons (Switchable) + Sharp Claws (Switchable; Alternate Ability) for 1 hour, using Fixed Duration (so it lasts 3 minutes rather than being dependent on MoF/MoS), enough Extended Duration to last for a full hour (that's right between 10x +40% and 30x +60%, so 20x +50% could be justified), and Costs FP so you have to burn 1 FP to "cast" it. That would let you grant it to anyone, including yourself, so a Limitation that it can only be used on you would be appropriate. That's all pretty clunky, honestly, but at least it's doable... although I suspect you'd end up actually paying more for this ability than you would to just have those claws without any FP cost and/or maximum duration.
Yeah, I did indeed look at Afflictions as an option. Affliction works well if you want to affect others with such an ability, but when you only want it for yourself, as you pointed out, even if you add some sort of Self-Only -50% limitation, it still costs more then the trait would cost without the limitation. Which to me is counter-productive. A limited trait should not cost more than the base trait. Thus I don't like it even if it is workable solution.
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Old 12-10-2021, 11:35 AM   #7
Kallatari
 
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Default Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability

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Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
But you want an example and to do some math, so let's party! There is an optional rule for Limited Enhancements, but not one for enhancing or limiting limitations the same way. But we can pretend there is!

A power "Use" is one minute with costs fatigue, so we can apply Extended Duration to that. 60x falls between 30x and 100x, so that's +80%, which we flip because we're enhancing a limitation, and we get Costs FP per hour at -1% per FP.
Definitely not RAW, but I certainly view it as a reasonable approach within the spirit of the rules, and don't see anything rule-breaking about it. This would actually be a good approach for distinguishing between paying FP only at activation vs every minute to maintain.

I'd probably put the same rule of "rounding up to nearest 5%" as you do with limiting enhancements, so with the envisioned time frame, the Cost FP would be -0% for Cost FP 1 to 4, -5% for Cost FP 5 to 9, -10% for Cost FP 10 to 14, etc. Not exactly a worthwhile for limitation value cost of 1 to 4 FP, but at least it doesn't make it more expensive the way designing it around an Affliction would.

Last edited by Kallatari; 12-10-2021 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 12-10-2021, 11:37 AM   #8
Kallatari
 
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Default Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability

Anyone have any thoughts about my #6 with the Alternate Abilities and whether it costs FP to switch between the two, whether you add the Cost FP limitation to all alternate abilities, and how to make it switchable without paying FP switching between them?
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Old 12-10-2021, 11:58 AM   #9
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability

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Originally Posted by Kallatari View Post
Anyone have any thoughts about my #6 with the Alternate Abilities and whether it costs FP to switch between the two, whether you add the Cost FP limitation to all alternate abilities, and how to make it switchable without paying FP switching between them?
I'd say treat "Extendable Claws" as a metatrait consisting of Talons (Switchable +10%) and Sharp Claws (Switchable +10%; Alternate Ability x1/5). Then apply stuff like Costs FP, Limited Use, Maximum Duration, etc to the Extendable Claws metatrait - during the time it's available, you can freely switch between the two, without paying extra FP, expending uses separately, turning one off (and thus starting Maximum Duration's cooldown), etc. Any time I have multiple Advantages that are really just one trait, this is the methodology I feel works best.
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Old 12-10-2021, 09:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability

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Originally Posted by Kallatari View Post
2. Sharp Claws (Cost Fatigue 1, -5%) [5]: This means that I don’t have claws until I spend a FP, at which point they come out. I need to spend 1 FP each minute to maintain the claws or they disappear. I can voluntarily have the claws end (disappear), but then it costs me another 1 FP to bring them back again.
I really think unless it's a transient ability like Innate Attack thought purchasing the Switchable enhancement ought to be mandatory to buy Costs Fatigue on your ongoing power.

Otherwise you're getting the ability to turn your ability off for free, which can be pretty useful.

Horror 79's Eidolon has "Costs Fatigue, 2 FP, -10%" and "switchable +10%" added to Invisibility, for example. That +10% should count for something.

I know this conflicts with later forum errata that switchability comes for free, but doing this allows a pretty huge back door to get free switchability, especially for stuff like Mana Damper where Switchable is much more expensive (I think +100%)

With the introduction of "While conscious, -5%" in Chinese Elemental Powers, you're basically only paying +5%. There isn't really any reason not to take the WC discount for "costs fatigue" stuff since if you lose consciousness you won't be able to pay FP to maintain the ability anyway.

About the only downside (aside from the paltry "concentrate instead of a ready to switch it on") might be that "while conscious" stuff shuts down immediately when you get KO'd whereas "costs fatigue only" stuff might last for the minute you pre-paid and shut down at the end of that minute.
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