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12-09-2021, 11:47 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability
I’m trying to figure out how Cost Fatigue interacts with other modifiers, and the exact effects on an ability. Let’s start with Sharp Claws [5] for the trait of this discussion, to which I’ll do different builds, some with and without Cost Fatigue.
1. Sharp Claws (Switchable, +10%) [6]: I have sharp claws I can retract/extract at will, no FP cost.Now, the trait I’m actually trying to design that triggered all of this came when adding in an Alternative Ability into the mix. I want a trait that, for 1 FP (i.e., Cost Fatigue 1, -5%), I have claws for 1 hour (i.e., Maximum Duration, -10%) that are extractable/retractable (i.e., Switchable, +10%) that I can alternate length between Sharp Claws [5] and Talons [8]. There should be no maintenance cost. Presumably, I want something like this: 6. Sharp Claws (Alternate Ability, x1/5; Cost Fatigue 1, -5%; Maximum Duration, 1 hour, -10%; Switchable, +10%) [1]; Talons (Cost Fatigue 1, -5%; Maximum Duration, 1 hour, -10%; Switchable, +10%) [8]. Total Cost: 9My thoughts to date, for the Cost FP to maintain vs Cost FP once, I’ve been playing around that the cost to maintain remains even with Maximum Duration, and the way to have a one-time activation cost is to create the trait as an Affliction with Self-Only, -50%, and therefore the cost is only to activate a lingering Affliction (so no maintenance). That unfortunately tends to make the ability cost +5 to +10 points more expensive than if it was the underlying trait with no FP cost at all, so I don’t particularly like that method and am looking for other alternatives.a) I spend 1 FP and have both Sharp Claws and Talons – but only one at a time - for 1 hour, and can switch between them freelyAnd of course, depending on how we answered previous questions above, does it also cost 1 FP every minute? For the Alternative Ability FP cost to switch between the two, I’m wondering if the solution is something along the lines of “only add Cost Fatigue to one of the traits” to not pay when switching, and add it to both to pay when switching. However, should there not be some sort of repercussion to the Maximum Duration (i.e., does it start over when you switch?)? Or do you also leave it out of the alternatives? As always, I'm happy to hear everyone's thoughts on how they would interpret the builds and build the alternative versions. [Please Note: I realize that Sharp Claws is effectively a lesser version of Talons that only gives you cut damage instead of cut or imp. You therefore could technically create a special Accessibility or other limitation to Talons to solve the above problem. But this discussion is not about finding a build for that specific ability, but rather about understanding the build and how to replicate it for other traits. There are also other similar limitations that can come into play, such as Limited Use instead of Maximum Duration, so again understanding the logic behind them is the goal]. Last edited by Kallatari; 12-10-2021 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Fixed cost of Switchable from +20% to +10% |
12-09-2021, 12:56 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
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Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability
Adding Costs FP automatically makes it Switchable so you do not need that modifier.
Not sure on the FP with Maximum Duration but I know its been answered before.
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12-09-2021, 01:12 PM | #3 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability
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Another option for building the trait is to do it the way Sorcery would - an Affliction (Benefaction?) that grants the target Talons (Switchable) + Sharp Claws (Switchable; Alternate Ability) for 1 hour, using Fixed Duration (so it lasts 3 minutes rather than being dependent on MoF/MoS), enough Extended Duration to last for a full hour (that's right between 10x +40% and 30x +60%, so 20x +50% could be justified), and Costs FP so you have to burn 1 FP to "cast" it. That would let you grant it to anyone, including yourself, so a Limitation that it can only be used on you would be appropriate. That's all pretty clunky, honestly, but at least it's doable... although I suspect you'd end up actually paying more for this ability than you would to just have those claws without any FP cost and/or maximum duration.
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12-09-2021, 05:06 PM | #4 | ||
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lynn, MA
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Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability
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Under normal circumstances, I would say that "a" would not be worth getting into, and handwave it, or say the character could take it as a power quirk "exerting claws" or some such... There isn't always RAW for a point cost for every variation. But you want an example and to do some math, so let's party! There is an optional rule for Limited Enhancements, but not one for enhancing or limiting limitations the same way. But we can pretend there is! A power "Use" is one minute with costs fatigue, so we can apply Extended Duration to that. 60x falls between 30x and 100x, so that's +80%, which we flip because we're enhancing a limitation, and we get Costs FP per hour at -1% per FP. |
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12-10-2021, 11:22 AM | #5 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability
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12-10-2021, 11:27 AM | #6 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability
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12-10-2021, 11:35 AM | #7 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability
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I'd probably put the same rule of "rounding up to nearest 5%" as you do with limiting enhancements, so with the envisioned time frame, the Cost FP would be -0% for Cost FP 1 to 4, -5% for Cost FP 5 to 9, -10% for Cost FP 10 to 14, etc. Not exactly a worthwhile for limitation value cost of 1 to 4 FP, but at least it doesn't make it more expensive the way designing it around an Affliction would. Last edited by Kallatari; 12-10-2021 at 11:39 AM. |
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12-10-2021, 11:37 AM | #8 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability
Anyone have any thoughts about my #6 with the Alternate Abilities and whether it costs FP to switch between the two, whether you add the Cost FP limitation to all alternate abilities, and how to make it switchable without paying FP switching between them?
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12-10-2021, 11:58 AM | #9 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability
I'd say treat "Extendable Claws" as a metatrait consisting of Talons (Switchable +10%) and Sharp Claws (Switchable +10%; Alternate Ability x1/5). Then apply stuff like Costs FP, Limited Use, Maximum Duration, etc to the Extendable Claws metatrait - during the time it's available, you can freely switch between the two, without paying extra FP, expending uses separately, turning one off (and thus starting Maximum Duration's cooldown), etc. Any time I have multiple Advantages that are really just one trait, this is the methodology I feel works best.
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12-10-2021, 09:47 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Confusion on combining Cost Fatigue, Maximum Duration, and Alternate Ability
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Otherwise you're getting the ability to turn your ability off for free, which can be pretty useful. Horror 79's Eidolon has "Costs Fatigue, 2 FP, -10%" and "switchable +10%" added to Invisibility, for example. That +10% should count for something. I know this conflicts with later forum errata that switchability comes for free, but doing this allows a pretty huge back door to get free switchability, especially for stuff like Mana Damper where Switchable is much more expensive (I think +100%) With the introduction of "While conscious, -5%" in Chinese Elemental Powers, you're basically only paying +5%. There isn't really any reason not to take the WC discount for "costs fatigue" stuff since if you lose consciousness you won't be able to pay FP to maintain the ability anyway. About the only downside (aside from the paltry "concentrate instead of a ready to switch it on") might be that "while conscious" stuff shuts down immediately when you get KO'd whereas "costs fatigue only" stuff might last for the minute you pre-paid and shut down at the end of that minute. |
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