12-02-2009, 11:01 PM | #71 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?
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There's an article in Barry Molloy ed., The Cutting Edge (2007) on Scythian bows which has a good summary of the physics involved (although it overstates its argument for the effectiveness of bows with a moderate draw). The weight and design of an arrow set limits on the strength of bow it can be usefully fired from, and we have tens of thousands of arrows from military contexts which could not have benefitted from draw weights of 50 kilos or more. An article "Experimental Archaeology" in Antiquity 62 (1988) pp. 658-670 has two replica composite bows (one Late Bronze Age Egyptian and one Early Modern Crimean Tartar) based on examples used in war. Both have draws of under 30 kg.
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12-02-2009, 11:11 PM | #72 | |||
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Germany
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Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?
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12-02-2009, 11:16 PM | #73 | |
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philippines, Makati
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Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?
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edit:>> At 100-200yrds Vision Checks should be made to track movement in light forests. At 50 to 100 at medium density forests. Closely packed heavy forests thick with bushes and low branches (un-thinned by fires) will be 30 to 70 yrds Vision checks. Maybe someone needs to put out a "pre-scaled" 6 second combat turn system extrapolating on the basic system. the Second by Second rule is only useful in duels and skirmishes of small nos. Larger skirmishes (for me more than 7-10 individual units to coordinate) tends to need time scaling. There is a terrible inefficiency when there are long moments of non-action or trivial-actions going back while going through initiative rounds. >> Edit: Useful GM notes: (should take 2 mins for the GM to arbitrarily fill out). Hex-Scale: Time-Scale: Visibility Notes: Movement modified by Terrain (x scaled time) - DX TDM Terrain - Hustling - Running Survival notes: (crap on a roll of margin of failure X) - Natural Hazards - Animal Hazards Navigation notes: (crap on a roll of margin of failure X) - Area Knowledge - Path-finding Last edited by nik1979; 12-02-2009 at 11:36 PM. |
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12-02-2009, 11:33 PM | #74 | |||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?
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But apart from horse archers (who won by harrying until the enemy force was routed), the bow was not usually a battle-winning weapon. Rome certainly didn't field significant archer contingents (yes, I'm aware that they fielded archers, but as a percentile of their total strength, hardly important). Quote:
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In any event, Adam Karpowicz believes that Turkish composite bows of 90-160 lb draw were common and I find his research convincing. It is true that in order to benefit from a heavy draw, you generally need a heavy arrow, but the optimum breakpoint is very different depending on the design of bow. A composite bow might use an arrow of only half the weight of a selfbow of the same draw and achieve comparable (or superior) energy. The lighest examples of warbows he has tested were 67 lb. and that's meant to be used on horseback.
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12-02-2009, 11:34 PM | #75 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philippines, Makati
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Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?
Which actually brings up the nasty problem of Bow type being more correlated to ST Requirement than Dmg.
You can't have a ST17 Yew warbow, before the bow is too awkward to handle for a medium sized characters. Since bow mass and material corresponds to the ability of the material to hold an amount of force one can mend the excess damage of Thr+3 to Thr+2 and just redistribute the bow strength. up to... Yew Bow ST11, 2lbs Yew Warbow ST13, 3lbs Laminate Warbow ST14, 4lbs Composite Bow ST15, 4lbs Composite Warbow ST17, 6lbs |
12-02-2009, 11:44 PM | #76 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?
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I mean, considering that real people are using real warbows of 180-200 lbs. right now. Made out of yew. And if that's not ST 20, well, what is? Those are the heaviest bows used, whether you measure selfbows or composite bows. And from the best Douglas Cole and I can measure, using the Basic Lift tables, it is ST 18-20.
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12-03-2009, 12:07 AM | #77 | |
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philippines, Makati
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Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?
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Ok then scale it up then. Anyway, how heavy are the 200lb draw bows? They can't be 3lbs like the one in the books (or are they)? Anyway I'm not privy to the mass to mechanical energy formula. I'm not even sure if those Warbows take 1 second to draw. Do we know how much time did the person take to draw the bow? Given that its a 200lb draw, a ST15 (45lbs BL, 90lbs with two arms and Back are part of the pull) would be able to generate 180lbs of pull in 2 seconds. GURPS assumes a 1 second draw which is BLx2-ish. Although we don't really have solid evidence that draws were made using just 1 second or 2. 10 Shots per Minute means 6 seconds per shot. Makes it plausible that the archer uses 2 seconds to generate "work" needed to draw the 140lb bow per shot. Assuming on 2sec Draw ST11, 96lbs ST13, 135lbs (1d+2 pi; most common draw weight; strongbow perk, ST11, Bow DX+2) ST15, 180lbs ST17, 230lbs ST11, 50lbs can be achieved in a one second draw. Last edited by nik1979; 12-03-2009 at 12:29 AM. |
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12-03-2009, 12:10 AM | #78 |
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?
Okay, you guys are missing a lot of stuff here.
First off, area denial. Bring your caltrops and oil flasks. If you're in a dungeon the approach is narrow enough for this. If the GM is foolish enough bring a sack or two of marbles. They're great on stairs too but soap works well too. Bring your shield wall buddies and have them crouch behind their large shields with their spears poking out. Bring a brazier or fire box of hot coals and some arrows with oil soaked rags wrapped around the tips. Hey, your dependant can carry it right? Especially when faced with wooden huts with thatched roofs (and gazebos), fire is your friend. If you've got a little time you can put a puddle of lamp oil where they have to run through it and then light it as they come. High St crossbows cocked by the barbarian are fun but they take a long time to reload, cost a lot, and weigh too much. When possible a bow is just as good against unarmoured parts of your foe. If you're playing with piecemeal armour, shoot the legs or weapon arms if they aren't armoured. Also, as others have mentioned, mobility is good. An archer who can run 7 hexes will rarely be in danger from a heavily armoured fighter. If the GM will let you take it Clinging is a wonderful thing for an archer.
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12-03-2009, 12:29 AM | #79 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?
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There are heavier bows, but these suffer greatly in performance. Quote:
Depending on the breaks, people probably draw about 2.25-2.5xBL. An average person, ST 10, uses something between 40-50 lb. The strongest bows are 200 lb. Drawing a bow is not precisely the same as lifting stuff, so realistically, we can't expect an exact match. But it's far closer to 2xBL than 4xBL. Bow penetration is far too high at high ST scores, off course. But that, as Douglas Cole noted earlier, is something only a completely revised damage system for GURPS could fix.
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Tags |
archer, bow, fantasy, low-tech |
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