(Another) World of Superhumans

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Aye, "evil government program" doesn't mean the same thing to everyone here, and even when citing a specific fictional or real-world program, it may not have to be "as evil" or even evil at all in the timeline. Being overall good but with some ambiguous or secret evil strikes me as offering a lot of good story/adventure offerings. Even if the process does result in certain Mental Disadvantages... so what?

I'd go one step further. Our normal military induction/training programs might naturally activate potential supers just with the regular programs. Basic training is designed to turn kids into fighters by pushing them to the limit. It's likely the most physical and possibly the most mental stress most of them have faced. Advanced training for special forces is even more intense.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Armies generally succeed by designing everything to function when maintained or used by people with minimum acceptable capabilities (a '9' in every attribute) and only specialists need above average capabilities in a single attribute.

While much of the gear is usable by someone with ST 9, that's not really who it was designed for. When my brother joined the USMC, and they found he was exactly 6' tall, they commented that this would likely work out well for him, as that's the height pretty much all the standard gear was designed for. 6' is a decent amount taller than male average, with an associated increase in ST; perhaps not a full +1 (but then, with 10 being human average, males are probably on average a bit higher than 10 anyway), but I doubt anyone with ST 9 would be expected to serve as a grunt (and probably wouldn't make it through basic training/boot camp without at least getting to ST 10, although a "sick bay commando" might manage it, and a POG could let it drop back down to the minimum required to not get thrown out for poor PT performance).

Provided it doesn't come with an associated increase in required consumption (and to a lesser extent, even if it does), the major thing higher ST affords a modern soldier is increased carry capacity. Even if the squad super is used as a pack mule as you mention later, the ability to carry markedly more rations, ammunition, and/or other gear/supplies is going to improve the squad's overall effectiveness. If he isn't used as a pack mule, the squad super could use a more powerful weapon (the limitations on which are often more down to weight of ammunition) or simply use the same weapon with more ammo, and is either more comfortable in standard armor or wears heavier armor that feels roughly the same to him as standard armor feels to normal troops. Apparently, a roughly standard load for a soldier is somewhere around 100 lb these days, or Heavy Encumbrance for ST 10 (with 20 lb to spare). With ST 13, that's only Medium Encumbrance (albeit with only 2 lb to spare). If we assume the typical combatant hovers nearer to ST 11 (BL 24), that puts the 100 lb standard load at around 4xBL. With ST 13 (BL 34), a proportional load is around 141 lb, nearly half again the weight a normal soldier carries - and higher ST makes this more pronounced (a super with ST 16 has a proportionally-equivalent load of around 212 lb, more than double).

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

With an average of 1% of the population being superhuman, a nation could attempt to draft every super into its military, but it would likely soon regret that policy when the supers launch a military coup and replace the non-super civilian government.

You likely don't need to resort to a draft, just give extra incentives. I don't think anyone is suggesting comprising the entire military - or even the entire fighting force of the military - of supers; rather, you may have a super in each squad, or entire squads of supers (or platoon, or company, or even battalion, although I wouldn't expect to go beyond that). They may well be disproportionately represented in the military, and will typically have powers that aren't terribly useful for civilians, or even useful to soldiers for that matter (the "+2 to everything" of the super template is more what made them look like good prospects to recruiters). Indeed, even without supers in play the military tends to try quite a bit to recruit people who they suspect have useful abilities (the same brother I mentioned earlier was borderline-harassed by recruiters after he scored a near-perfect on the ASVAB we all had to take at our high school until he eventually enlisted; they tried to a lesser extent with me as well), and give enlistment bonuses to entice such. Super mercenary groups (likely with a large number of military veteran supers) are also likely.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Varyon

While much of the gear is usable by someone with ST 9, that's not really who it was designed for. When my brother joined the USMC, and they found he was exactly 6' tall, they commented that this would likely work out well for him, as that's the height pretty much all the standard gear was designed for. 6' is a decent amount taller than male average, with an associated increase in ST; perhaps not a full +1 (but then, with 10 being human average, males are probably on average a bit higher than 10 anyway), but I doubt anyone with ST 9 would be expected to serve as a grunt (and probably wouldn't make it through basic training/boot camp without at least getting to ST 10, although a "sick bay commando" might manage it, and a POG could let it drop back down to the minimum required to not get thrown out for poor PT performance).

B18's table would have 6' as ST10-13, with the average being a little under ST12.

Designing all your stuff from someone 6' tall might make for nice round numbers, but it's not well connected to reality, and wasn't even before the USMC allowed women to join (quite a long time ago now).

Provided it doesn't come with an associated increase in required consumption (and to a lesser extent, even if it does), the major thing higher ST affords a modern soldier is increased carry capacity. Even if the squad super is used as a pack mule as you mention later, the ability to carry markedly more rations, ammunition, and/or other gear/supplies is going to improve the squad's overall effectiveness. If he isn't used as a pack mule, the squad super could use a more powerful weapon (the limitations on which are often more down to weight of ammunition) or simply use the same weapon with more ammo, and is either more comfortable in standard armor or wears heavier armor that feels roughly the same to him as standard armor feels to normal troops.

Carrying more of everything is the most likely outcome.

Apparently, a roughly standard load for a soldier is somewhere around 100 lb these days, or Heavy Encumbrance for ST 10 (with 20 lb to spare). With ST 13, that's only Medium Encumbrance (albeit with only 2 lb to spare). If we assume the typical combatant hovers nearer to ST 11 (BL 24), that puts the 100 lb standard load at around 4xBL. With ST 13 (BL 34), a proportional load is around 141 lb, nearly half again the weight a normal soldier carries - and higher ST makes this more pronounced (a super with ST 16 has a proportionally-equivalent load of around 212 lb, more than double).

Over 100-pounds when on the march is normal. You want a combat load under 40-pounds, which is possible until the extra machinegun ammo turns up. Ideally it would be under 20-pounds, but that's not happening generally. Mounted troops might manage it as long as they can stay near their vehicles.

By the way, the UK found in the Falklands War that if soldiers were carrying less than 7kg when they were injured they had a much better chance of recovering. This suggests to me that HT rolls related to injury recovery should be penalised by the encumbrance worn when wounded or during recovery (whichever is worse).

You likely don't need to resort to a draft, just give extra incentives. I don't think anyone is suggesting comprising the entire military - or even the entire fighting force of the military - of supers; rather, you may have a super in each squad, or entire squads of supers (or platoon, or company, or even battalion, although I wouldn't expect to go beyond that).

I'd try for entire spec ops units, or at least all their front-line soldiers. However, if supers are joining up, many will end up there anyway because the military will see their performance and steer them there and the entry requirements are high enough that they wash out most people, so the supers with their higher pass rate will tend to be more common in spec ops units anyway.

[AlexanderHowl]

It may vary with the force as well. In the US military, the Air Force and Navy need different things than the Army or the Marines. In my own case, being 6'2" and the equivalent of ST 13 was not an asset in the Navy.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It may vary with the force as well. In the US military, the Air Force and Navy need different things than the Army or the Marines. In my own case, being 6'2" and the equivalent of ST 13 was not an asset in the Navy.

Because you kept breaking things, or were too tall for certain (or many) jobs you regularly needed to perform?

I really am asking. My own best point of reference on your situation, an uncle who served in the U.S. Navy during Viet Nam, was also somewhat tall (around your height), passed away last year. I also don't know if he would have been ST13 at that time; if he was, it would have been his peak. By the time I knew him, my uncle was an over-the-road truck driver, probably ST11... maybe ST12.

I realize it isn't always clear, but not every suggestion I make is about the U.S. military. If I'm talking about a government program tasked with breeding, training, and "caring" for the state's superhuman soldiers or agents, I'm thinking of large-scale, authoritarian regimes like how the USSR was often depicted in western media... or smaller nations being sponsored (possibly in secret) by the larger ones.

With what I am reading, I just don't see why - even if it was just as a long-term goal - a country wouldn't want an all baseline superhuman army. If absolutely nothing else changes, and even if all the "awakened" powers were negligible in their use, now more of the population is qualified to serve and now more of the population has above-average stats. I don't see how having a "light infantry" that can haul heavier weapons while still moving at a decent clip isn't a valuable thing. It might be harder to get the bang for your CP when you're playing a superhero... but when you're a soldier authorized to wear body armor too heavy for most normal people, and similarly, carry weaponry that would normally have to be vehicle mounted?

[AlexanderHowl]

Because I was too tall for the ship (the bunks were not quite large enough for my frame). I also never really got to use my full strength because I was stronger than everyone else, which meant that I had to make sure that they did not get hurt (which, paradoxically, led to me getting hurt a couple of times). As for an entire superhuman force, it would just be too expensive, as superhuman could do something else for better pay.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Because I was too tall for the ship (the bunks were not quite large enough for my frame). I also never really got to use my full strength because I was stronger than everyone else, which meant that I had to make sure that they did not get hurt (which, paradoxically, led to me getting hurt a couple of times).

I see... but would that be a problem in a force standardized around stronger superhumans? Or where units were all keen on getting their own super soldier, so "Guys! Remember to make room for 'im and don't forget he's stronger than he looks!"?

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

As for an entire superhuman force, it would just be too expensive, as superhuman could do something else for better pay.

I am going to use bold because I know I just made this point, but it was missed:

Don't assume the superhumans have a choice. We've been discussing an artificially bred/engineered army. Odds are the country which does that will have looser moral standards... or maybe just has the kind of planned, centralized economy where the army really is the best employer. Though, even in something resembling the modern USA, I could definitely see a way to make this work without requiring anything too dark from the U.S. military. A special boot camp, where if you made it through but did not develop powers, you could still join the normal military... if you wanted. If not, you were done (but hey, the U.S. gains some more data).

If you do manifest, you are definitely stuck serving, but as a super soldier. A super soldier. Even if the government required longer than usual service, as long as it wasn't too crazy, I'm thinking a lot of folks would take them up on it. Think how many do now out of a desire to serve or a lack of anything better, and the opportunities completing your service provides.

The more we talk about it, the more I'm not seeing how this does not fit what you've described. So, if you do not want a lot of Supers in the US (and similar) militaries, instead of finding excuses for the government having not figured out how to trigger latents, maybe just lower the likelihood of someone from the U.S.A. having the genes to trigger? So that robust military - and other public sectors (cops, fire department, etc.) - and private sector employers (who could finagle the clearance) are helping to crank out additional supers... and that is why the U.S. has caught up with the global average.

[AlexanderHowl]

Any society that creates an all super military will likely have a successful military coup pretty quickly. Compulsory service will only exacerbate that tendency, especially since you would need to draft latent supers before puberty to have any chance of guiding their power development, so they would have the additiional trauma of being stolen from their families. I am not saying that there are nations that would not try, it is just that their governments would be replaced by a super-aristocracy relatively quickly.

There really is no way to make it work in the USA without violating constitutional rights like equal protection under the law. While you could justify giving extra privileges like special schools (especially if they are technically open to normal students), requiring special service would be forbidden. Even if it somehow passed constitutional muster, the USA is no more immune to military coups than any other nation if it dumb enough to cause supers to resent the civilian leadership. At best, the entire military deserts and the federal government must scramble to fill the military with normal people and figure out how to successfully integrate the supers who deserted into normal society (prosecuting then for desertion who only end up with an insurrection that the supers are likely to win).

In general, the vast majority of people serve in the US military because it is their best choice, not out of pure patriotism (there are those who enter service out of pure patriotism, but they usually learn better out after a couple of years). When I was in the Navy, the vast majority of people that I encountered admitted that it was really their only choice to usually a) avoid poverty, b) support their families, c) afford an education, d) restart their lives, e) because it was a family tradition and/or f) avoid complications with their previous life. Patriotism was a fairly uncommon as a pure motivation.

The problem with the special boot camp is what happens if the children fail to pass? Do you push them through again? And how do you deal with children that will manifest abilities that will let them escape boot camp since those will probably be the most common abilities that manifest unconsciously?

[Phantasm]

I can see countries like the US and many of our allies fast-tracking the supers in their militaries into special forces units.

Of course, there's always the possibility of supers-only units being banned in countries that sign an agreement similar to many of the nuclear arms limitation treaties. This doesn't mean that such units won't form anyway (a Navy SEAL team composed entirely of supers is bound to happen regardless of treaties), but such units won't "officially" be supers-only, just only end up with supers assigned to them.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Any society that creates an all super military will likely have a successful military coup pretty quickly. Compulsory service will only exacerbate that tendency, especially since you would need to draft latent supers before puberty to have any chance of guiding their power development, so they would have the additiional trauma of being stolen from their families. I am not saying that there are nations that would not try, it is just that their governments would be replaced by a super-aristocracy relatively quickly.

There simply aren't enough Supers to make that feasible. You might get small nations ruled by a super dictator that sets up his corner of the world.

There really is no way to make it work in the USA without violating constitutional rights like equal protection under the law.

The situation that I saw described above was people that were activated through after they had already committed to service. Basically in the course of running people through training, that's where many would experience the "snap" (in Mistborn terms).

The problem with the special boot camp is what happens if the children fail to pass? Do you push them through again? And how do you deal with children that will manifest abilities that will let them escape boot camp since those will probably be the most common abilities that manifest unconsciously?

If that's going to be the case, it will be the case for any Super getting their powers. Powers that allow you to escape whatever situation activated them (rather then endure, deal with, or conquer) will be the norm for this world.

It just doesn't make sense especially for those that choose to be in boot camp, that escape powers would be a higher percentage than those that are experiencing unwanted, random stress that activates powers.