Nerf human hands

hcobb · 03-01-2020, 02:21 PM

I forgot to reduce fist damage down to Melee/Wizard levels.

That poor defenseless dragon!

https://youtu.be/CCVNZ87bdrE

Skarg · 03-02-2020, 01:11 AM

Good point about the crazy unarmed damage amounts, especially if you allow the +2 "dirty" brawling bonus. That means ST 11 is 1d-2, +1 for HTH, +2 for "dirty" brawling, which is 1d+1, which is as much as two-handed spear damage!

However I don't know what you mean about it being "+3" - and then +1 for Brawling. I think maybe you mis-read the +3 for using a dagger in HTH, and then added +1 for Brawling?

Really I would say not to do the +2 but only +1 for Brawling, and +1 for HTH, so it would be 1d+0. Still as much as a one-handed spear, which seems a bit much anyway, but not quite as bad.

Skarg · 03-02-2020, 01:30 AM

Interesting video, though I feel compelled to point out several details from my own perspective.

* Your spearmen show the damage for 2-handed spears, but you also gave them shields which they were holding, so the spear damage would be 1d, no? You had them doing 2d+1 charge damage rather than 2d.

* The wizard is IQ 18. The dragon is IQ 16. Well, no Tactics, so... charge into spears and crossbows!

As you pointed out at the end of the video, there are smarter moves.

One smarter move would be to use the corridor to back up so that no crossbow can step to get a shot in, and hope they come forward to get killed (the wizard could devastate them with wizard's wrath, for example, or if not, perhaps cast Reverse Missiles since they have crossbows - wow that sorceress has very few combat-useful spells for someone who rides around in dangerous tunnels on a dragon with no other allies and who knows 18 spells and has 12 points in talents).

* From the other side's perspective, of course, the most dangerous and vulnerable character (to the degree they can assess her) is the 37-point-plus-lots-more-talents-staff-mana-and-magic-equipment "typical" ST 6 goblin sorceress riding a dragon. Who could have been attacked by three foes on turn 1, with very good chances of taking her out (especially the crossbowman). But did they do that? Oddly, no.

* 4-hex fire? Casting 7-Hex Fire, why not add even more so they can't easily get out of it?

* On turn 2, all of the foes could attack the wizard, but again they didn't.

* And then... 4-hex fire again? In this position, you could add a couple more hexes of fire so even if they Disengage they'll be on fire.

* Why is using a one-handed polearm another -2 to hit? Oh, was that before you realized there was no DX penalty to hit a mount rather than a rider?

* Turn 3: Your HTH house rule is interesting to see, but it rather gives different results to RAW, where they would need to wait for their action to attempt it. Given that the dragon would have evaded, but couldn't because of the wall positions (well, for the first figure that tried, and then you had the dragon stop evading, but the other figures did not put the dragon in the same situation from where they were - so could it not have backed up away from the others?), suggests to me rather than a dragon might have a chance to brush/bump off someone trying to get it in HTH.

* Why was Yellow left in the flames? Just because you're using Lego figures? Normally multiple figures can pile into HTH.

hcobb · 03-02-2020, 02:37 AM

Yellow had taken 8 hits in a single turn and so fell over in his own hex.

It looks like I need to increase the goblin's powerstone si she can cast reverse missiles on the dragon.

ITL 132 indicates that a dragon riden by a goblin is -2 to be hit. The goblin is also -2 to be hit.

Skarg · 03-02-2020, 03:03 PM

Oh wow...yeah we should ask Steve about the logic of -2 DX to attack a mount. That just seems weird, especially in the case of a dragon.

hcobb · 03-02-2020, 04:27 PM

This is one of the reasons a warhorse beats up a dragon twice his size.

Skarg · 03-02-2020, 04:27 PM

Remembering this more now... I'm thinking we used to assume it was supposedly about the horse being fast and nimble... though we were just rationalizing. But if that's the reason, it wouldn't apply to an MA 6 dragon... if anything, it'd be less nimble if its movements are constrained by trying not to hurt the fragile goblin rider on its back.

Shostak · 03-02-2020, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

ITL 132 indicates that a dragon riden by a goblin is -2 to be hit. The goblin is also -2 to be hit.

That has been ruled an erratum at my table. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

03-01-2020, 02:21 PM	#1
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Nerf human hands I forgot to reduce fist damage down to Melee/Wizard levels. That poor defenseless dragon! https://youtu.be/CCVNZ87bdrE __________________ -HJC

03-02-2020, 01:11 AM	#2
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Nerf human hands Good point about the crazy unarmed damage amounts, especially if you allow the +2 "dirty" brawling bonus. That means ST 11 is 1d-2, +1 for HTH, +2 for "dirty" brawling, which is 1d+1, which is as much as two-handed spear damage! However I don't know what you mean about it being "+3" - and then +1 for Brawling. I think maybe you mis-read the +3 for using a dagger in HTH, and then added +1 for Brawling? Really I would say not to do the +2 but only +1 for Brawling, and +1 for HTH, so it would be 1d+0. Still as much as a one-handed spear, which seems a bit much anyway, but not quite as bad.

03-02-2020, 01:30 AM	#3
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Nerf human hands Interesting video, though I feel compelled to point out several details from my own perspective. * Your spearmen show the damage for 2-handed spears, but you also gave them shields which they were holding, so the spear damage would be 1d, no? You had them doing 2d+1 charge damage rather than 2d. * The wizard is IQ 18. The dragon is IQ 16. Well, no Tactics, so... charge into spears and crossbows! As you pointed out at the end of the video, there are smarter moves. One smarter move would be to use the corridor to back up so that no crossbow can step to get a shot in, and hope they come forward to get killed (the wizard could devastate them with wizard's wrath, for example, or if not, perhaps cast Reverse Missiles since they have crossbows - wow that sorceress has very few combat-useful spells for someone who rides around in dangerous tunnels on a dragon with no other allies and who knows 18 spells and has 12 points in talents). * From the other side's perspective, of course, the most dangerous and vulnerable character (to the degree they can assess her) is the 37-point-plus-lots-more-talents-staff-mana-and-magic-equipment "typical" ST 6 goblin sorceress riding a dragon. Who could have been attacked by three foes on turn 1, with very good chances of taking her out (especially the crossbowman). But did they do that? Oddly, no. * 4-hex fire? Casting 7-Hex Fire, why not add even more so they can't easily get out of it? * On turn 2, all of the foes could attack the wizard, but again they didn't. * And then... 4-hex fire again? In this position, you could add a couple more hexes of fire so even if they Disengage they'll be on fire. * Why is using a one-handed polearm another -2 to hit? Oh, was that before you realized there was no DX penalty to hit a mount rather than a rider? * Turn 3: Your HTH house rule is interesting to see, but it rather gives different results to RAW, where they would need to wait for their action to attempt it. Given that the dragon would have evaded, but couldn't because of the wall positions (well, for the first figure that tried, and then you had the dragon stop evading, but the other figures did not put the dragon in the same situation from where they were - so could it not have backed up away from the others?), suggests to me rather than a dragon might have a chance to brush/bump off someone trying to get it in HTH. * Why was Yellow left in the flames? Just because you're using Lego figures? Normally multiple figures can pile into HTH.

03-02-2020, 02:37 AM	#4
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Nerf human hands Yellow had taken 8 hits in a single turn and so fell over in his own hex. It looks like I need to increase the goblin's powerstone si she can cast reverse missiles on the dragon. ITL 132 indicates that a dragon riden by a goblin is -2 to be hit. The goblin is also -2 to be hit. __________________ -HJC

03-02-2020, 03:03 PM	#5
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Nerf human hands Oh wow...yeah we should ask Steve about the logic of -2 DX to attack a mount. That just seems weird, especially in the case of a dragon.

03-02-2020, 04:27 PM	#6
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Nerf human hands This is one of the reasons a warhorse beats up a dragon twice his size. __________________ -HJC

03-02-2020, 04:27 PM	#7
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Nerf human hands Remembering this more now... I'm thinking we used to assume it was supposedly about the horse being fast and nimble... though we were just rationalizing. But if that's the reason, it wouldn't apply to an MA 6 dragon... if anything, it'd be less nimble if its movements are constrained by trying not to hurt the fragile goblin rider on its back.