[Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Think about it going the other direction; it isn't because we are adding a bunch of "Gains Cosmic when used by X Watchers at the same time" Modifier to anything. First we are modeling how the reality works; what effects can match or dominate other effects. Then we take that and put it into GURPS terms. "So-and-so is immune to the reality altering effects of this cosmic entity acting on its own, but when it joins with its peers they can affect even So-and-so."

Watchers are disciplined, but not stripped of power. They don't get "made mortal" like Odin has done to Thor so many times. There's even some rogue watchers wandering around. Aron was a young one (inspired for Utau) and Quasar and the Stranger teams up to take out yet another one.

Let's put in in perspective of characters. 10 Green Lanterns can usually overwhelm an 11th Green Lantern by raw force (not Hal, but most any other lantern). The collective of Green Lanterns don't turn of his abilities at the source, they have to best him with raw power. Even then they can only strip the beaten Lantern because his abilities come from a ring that's easily removed. If his abilities were innate, they wouldn't be able to remove them.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by naloth

Watchers are disciplined, but not stripped of power. They don't get "made mortal" like Odin has done to Thor so many times. There's even some rogue watchers wandering around. Aron was a young one (inspired for Utau) and Quasar and the Stranger teams up to take out yet another one.

Let's put in in perspective of characters. 10 Green Lanterns can usually overwhelm an 11th Green Lantern by raw force (not Hal, but most any other lantern). The collective of Green Lanterns don't turn of his abilities at the source, they have to best him with raw power. Even then they can only strip the beaten Lantern because his abilities come from a ring that's easily removed. If his abilities were innate, they wouldn't be able to remove them.

I am talking about situations where it isn't just raw power overwhelming the trait... or rather it is, but it isn't a situation like "Attack with Cosmic: Ignores DR hits DR with the Cosmic Enhancement and the two cancel out, so the being with the attack gets a bunch of its buddies so that their combined attack now does more damage than the defender has DR." Instead it would be like a situation where even though the group's damage output isn't increasing, working together allows the attack to ascend to a higher Cosmic Tier.

With attacks, it seems a bit silly. With things that alter reality, much less so. Not sure what the correct GURPS trait is, but if Shape Reality was a thing, then Cosmic Being A and Cosmic Being B normally cancel each other out, but Comsic Being A is part of Cosmic Group A, and when they work together their Shape Reality acts as if it had the next higher tier of Cosmic; it can affect things normally protected by only the first tier and can no longer be altered by first tier Cosmic.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Otaku

With things that alter reality, much less so. Not sure what the correct GURPS trait is, but if Shape Reality was a thing, then Cosmic Being A and Cosmic Being B normally cancel each other out, but Comsic Being A is part of Cosmic Group A, and when they work together their Shape Reality acts as if it had the next higher tier of Cosmic; it can affect things normally protected by only the first tier and can no longer be altered by first tier Cosmic.

I believe that'd be the 30+ points per level version of the Control advantage, aka "Godlike Control", possibly also with similar kinds of Create. For example, Infinity, the embodiment of Time, has a few hundred levels of Godlike Control Time (Cosmic, +XX%); Lord Chaos has Godlike Control Reality (Accessibility: To Keep Things Interesting, -20%; Cosmic +XX%); etc. Powers has a bit more on this, though I've never seen or made anyone who'd have that kind of Control.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

I believe that'd be the 30+ points per level version of the Control advantage, aka "Godlike Control", possibly also with similar kinds of Create. For example, Infinity, the embodiment of Time, has a few hundred levels of Godlike Control Time (Cosmic, +XX%); Lord Chaos has Godlike Control Reality (Accessibility: To Keep Things Interesting, -20%; Cosmic +XX%); etc. Powers has a bit more on this, though I've never seen or made anyone who'd have that kind of Control.

Gurps the weird has a reality alteration power, based on illusion with mental and stigmata with some other mods to make it 'real' . it is counter by abilities that can see through illusions and thus cab go 'turtels all the way down' with cosmic.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Otaku

With attacks, it seems a bit silly. With things that alter reality, much less so. Not sure what the correct GURPS trait is, but if Shape Reality was a thing, then Cosmic Being A and Cosmic Being B normally cancel each other out, but Comsic Being A is part of Cosmic Group A, and when they work together their Shape Reality acts as if it had the next higher tier of Cosmic; it can affect things normally protected by only the first tier and can no longer be altered by first tier Cosmic.

It's the same question regardless if it's TK or an Innate attack. You have 10 TK guys pushing up, 1 TK guy pushing down. They all have TK5 and it's a 100lb object. Who wins and how far does it get pushed? I'd pool the 10 guys (G:Powers has rules for gestalt TK), somehow work out the ST the guy is pressing down and create a net effect.

You seem to be suggesting that the power of the 10 guys should go beyond their numbers or gestalt effect. The question is why would they be able to pool their powers as anything more than extra oomph?

Perhaps it's a style thing, but I rarely strip powers unless the player got points back for how it could be taken away. When necessary, they just run into more powerful (in I'm stronger, tougher) opponents.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by naloth

It's the same question regardless if it's TK or an Innate attack.

What about cases of Immunity?

If we are only dealing with easily quantified effects like Telekinesis or Innate Attacks, yes it is quite easy! XD

What happens when we deal with effects GURPS doesn't handle in that matter? As is if I start with a story context first, I might find situations where instead of

Group attack overwhelms DR.

we end up with

Group attack gains Cosmic: Ignores DR.

because we aren't dealing with beings of raw attack power, but in some sort of control over reality (the cosmic hierarchy). If this was all we were dealing with, yeah just hand wave it and make it raw damage that wins out. How often are such beings going to attack two targets where the difference would become apparent?

It is when we get to all the reality (both the background reality and individual characters themselves) altering effects that we start to see mechanics where effects usually aren't cumulative, but "It works" or "It doesn't work".

Anyway, I should ask in case Phantasm weighed in on this and I just glanced over it without it actually registering... is there any uncertainty with how to handle this on your end, Phantam? This is a pretty edge case so if you're not worried about it, I should stop wasting naloth's and your time arguing it. XD

[starslayer]

Yea, this is more a matter of;

Mental attack
Foe has mind shield 50

Mental attack must achieve 50+ MoS to succeed

Mental attack + cosmic
Foe has mind shield 50

Mental attack must beat foes normal willpower.

Mental attack +cosmic
Foe has mind shield 50 +cosmic

Mental attack must achieve 50+MoS to succeed

Mental attack +cosmic * 2
Foe has mind shield 50 +cosmic
Mental attack must beat foes normal willpower.


and so on and so forth.

Just because the situation is
10x gestalt using mental attack
foe has mind shield 50

does not mean that they IGNORE the mind shield 50, it means they can gestalt to get a higher MoS to try and beat 50 mind shield. A cosmic means that it ignores the defense, and trying to define how many layers of cosmic there are in the marvel universe is not a lost endeavor for this thread.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Otaku

It is when we get to all the reality (both the background reality and individual characters themselves) altering effects that we start to see mechanics where effects usually aren't cumulative, but "It works" or "It doesn't work".

Anyway, I should ask in case Phantasm weighed in on this and I just glanced over it without it actually registering... is there any uncertainty with how to handle this on your end, Phantam? This is a pretty edge case so if you're not worried about it, I should stop wasting naloth's and your time arguing it. XD

The cases I see as being relevant in-universe at this stage are:

Adam Warlock and Thanos each having an Infinity Gem (Soul and undecided, possibly Reality or Power);

Watcher meeting Galactus; the Silver Surfer vs Doctor Doom (you know it'll happen eventually in-universe, even if not in Year One);

A version of Quasar (actually considering Phyla-Vell as Mar-Vell's sister) with the power bands;

Drax being "built" to kill Thanos;

Doctor Strange being Sorcerer Supreme of Earth, which seems to have its own niche in the cosmic scale;

The Elder Gods on the level of Gaea, Set, Chthon, Cytorrak, and their ilk, plus the more powerful of their progeny, including Zeus, Odin, and the Hindi triumvirate of Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva.

A case of Master Order, Lord Chaos, Infinity, Eternity, and Death teaming up to take down the Living Tribunal? *ehn* Not worth considering, IMO. Thor vs a Celestial? I'm still not sure if the Celestials exist yet; yes, they make a good case for why Mutants exist in the form they do, with the X-Gene being coded in a million years ago, but that also opens up the headache of Eternals and Deviants, who I've already said I'm not adding, in keeping with Jack Kirby's original wishes to not integrate them into the mainstream Marvel U.

Mostly, it's the lower-scale cases that I need to hammer out, not the upper tiers.

Clear as mud?

[cbower]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Clear as mud?

Seems fairly clear, but I have to wonder what Thanos's origins are in your continuity, as he's originally Darkseid an Eternal.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by cbower

Seems fairly clear, but I have to wonder what Thanos's origins are in your continuity, as he's originally Darkseid an Eternal.

I'm not entirely sure myself yet. "Titanian" is all I have, and not necessarily from Saturn's moon Titan; probably a Super-Earth out there with a name that translates into "Titan". The rest of it... he's currently as vague in origin as MCU!Thanos (though we've seen a single Celestial in flashback, plus the head of one - possibly the same one - in Guardians, they haven't given MCU!Thanos any origin yet.)