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Old 09-11-2009, 09:03 AM   #21
Archangel Beth
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Default Re: Quick question on geases

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Originally Posted by ladyarcana55 View Post
Okay, two quick question on geases.

1) Would someone be able to get a geas on someone if the agreement is over the phone?

For instance, I'm on the phone with a Lilim and I ask for a favor from them. In return I will owe them a favor. Will she get a geas from that or does the agreement have to be face to face?
See the IPG... Or, I think, the Liilth expansion on e23? Anyway, yes, if someone *specifically* agrees to a Geas, it can be done over the phone. (Resistance is automatic if the user does not knowingly agree that yes, this is a GEAS.) A Lilim cannot, however, read needs over the phone unless it's a vidphone. Or she's a Bright with a very recent photo, with eye-camera contact, of the person she's talking to.

If this is just Mundane Ellen talking to her buddy (Lilim) Lisa, who says, "I'll owe you one!"... Then unless Lisa read the Need ahead of time, and fulfilled it, and Ellen's just now thanking her about it... No Geas.

If Lisa read a Need ahead of time, and Ellen is asking her to fulfill it and acknowledging that as a favor for which she owes a return favor... Then I would probably let that become a Geas-hook. It's a GM call.

If Lisa didn't read a Need, but Ellen is asking her for a favor and promising a return one... No Geas. It's unofficial. Lisa will probably be upset all out of human proportion if Ellen doesn't follow through, though. Here she was, extending Lilim courtesy of unofficials, and this little monkey... GRRRRR!


EDIT: Lilim read Needs via eye contact, not voice; can't read Needs over the phone unless you've got video. A blind Lilim is intensely crippled! She can still Geas a wiling subject (see the IPG), but unless the GM is kind and allows touching someone's eyelids to "count"... Need-reading is out.


Quote:
2) What kind of information can the Lilim get from a geas they hold over someone else?

For instance, using the same example, would she be able to find out any information I did not give her?
No, though she would instinctively avoid terms of a Geas that would be "too much" for the Geas to compel. If your player is likely to try to fudge around "testing" the Geas, make the hook go poof. "You waffled too much, and over-thought it. It slipped out of your grasp. So sad." Warn your players about this ahead of time, of course, unless they're playing a newly-created Lilim who doesn't quite know how the Symphony (and her symphony) work.
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Last edited by Archangel Beth; 09-11-2009 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:06 AM   #22
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Default Re: Quick question on geases

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Originally Posted by robkelk View Post
I'm told that the Archangel of Archives was a Free who worked off her "Mother's Token". Granted, she was already a Bright by the time she managed that, but it happened.

(Yes, that's not canon. But it's something the Line Editor came up with, so it could be canon...)
*snort* The Archangel of Archives is a Self-Insert, arguably a Mary Sue. She and canon are only on speaking terms when she's quoting it.
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:32 AM   #23
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Default Re: Quick question on geases

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Yes, she is the ultimate abuser of geas retention.

How many thousands of Dijin-loads of targets is she holding onto?
My guess is "enough to have a viable power base, come Armageddon".

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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
*snort* The Archangel of Archives is a Self-Insert, arguably a Mary Sue. She and canon are only on speaking terms when she's quoting it.
You say that as if it's a bad thing... <g>
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:34 AM   #24
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Default Re: Quick question on geases

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Originally Posted by robkelk View Post
My guess is "enough to have a viable power base, come Armageddon".
Either that, or they're actually... Well, here. http://archangelbeth.livejournal.com/378155.html
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: Quick question on geases

Here is a more important question: If anyone can swear a geas against themselves, doesn't that lessen the importance of the Lilim somewhat?

Or is it ONLY a Lilim who can accept a geas offered? That does't seem likely as it isn't defined as such in the core rules.
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Old 09-12-2009, 07:36 PM   #26
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Default Re: Quick question on geases

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Originally Posted by JCD View Post
Here is a more important question: If anyone can swear a geas against themselves, doesn't that lessen the importance of the Lilim somewhat?

Or is it ONLY a Lilim who can accept a geas offered? That does't seem likely as it isn't defined as such in the core rules.
As I read the rules, anyone can promise to do or not do something, but only a Lilim can turn that promise into a self-Geas.

Only a fool would trust a Balseraph's word, but a Lilim who has self-Geased is the most trustworthy inhabitant of Hell. This can be important for "niche protection" in some games...
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Old 09-12-2009, 07:45 PM   #27
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Default Re: Quick question on geases

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Originally Posted by JCD View Post
Here is a more important question: If anyone can swear a geas against themselves, doesn't that lessen the importance of the Lilim somewhat?

Or is it ONLY a Lilim who can accept a geas offered? That does't seem likely as it isn't defined as such in the core rules.
When a lilim self-Geases, that means that she has turned her resonance on herself, and wil become dissonant if she doesn't do what she has promised. The only equivalent would be Malikite oaths, which similarly inflict Dissonance for breaking them. Any of the promises made by other Celestials are backed up by nothing more than that Celestials personal sense of honesty/honor, which for most demons is virtually nonexistent.
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Old 09-12-2009, 08:06 PM   #28
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Default Re: Quick question on geases

But yes, only a Lilim can turn a promise made to her into a Geas.

Even the most trustworthy Seraph promising someone to anyone isn't as much a surety as a lying Balseraph promising something to a Lilim.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:41 PM   #29
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Default Re: Quick question on geases

I'm sorry to disagree with you. It states quite plainly that anyone who can consciously manipulate Essence can swear a geas willingly. Barry Belseraph can swear a geas on himself to do X. It is not stated, but strongly implied in the Core under Geases as Discord, that Barry can swear this to anyone, not just a Lilim.

This is as opposed to what a Lilim does, which is FORCE a geas unwillingly...albeit a geas paid for. Barry cannot walk up to Phil the Accountant and grab a geas by offering him the money he needs. Nor does he have the infrastructure to deal with a welcher effectively. He cannot demand a geas for something, nor fix a price on what a person WOULD be willing to do for a geas. Lilim can. But it seems that they are not the sole arbitrators of geasdom.

How am I wrong on this?
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:06 PM   #30
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Default Re: Quick question on geases

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Originally Posted by JCD View Post
I'm sorry to disagree with you. It states quite plainly that anyone who can consciously manipulate Essence can swear a geas willingly. Barry Belseraph can swear a geas on himself to do X. It is not stated, but strongly implied in the Core under Geases as Discord, that Barry can swear this to anyone, not just a Lilim.
The only text in my copy refers to the GM or a Lilim "Inflicting" the Geas, which ,while it implies that there are entites other than Lilim which can impose a Geas, it doesn't say anything about any being capable of manipulating essence being able to swear one.

EDIT: Also, on p.148, the Lilm ability to self-geas "Makes the Lilm a paradoxical thing, a demon whose word can be trusted," which would not be the case if any Essence manipulating being could do the same.

Last edited by Dalillama; 09-13-2009 at 08:13 PM.
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