Feint.

[aesir23]

If your opponents are All-Out-Attacking every turn, why would you use Feint or Deceptive Attack at all?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by aesir23

If your opponents are All-Out-Attacking every turn, why would you use Feint or Deceptive Attack at all?

That strikes me as odd, too. All-Out Attack isn't especially useful against an opponent who's good enough to think about Feint or Deceptive Attack, because such a rival will be able to defend well enough to negate it, at which point the fighter using All-Out Attack will be defenseless, allowing his enemy to dedicate that high skill level to a Rapid Strike or an attack on a high-value hit location. I think we're missing something here. The OP suggests that Third Edition differs from Fourth Edition in this regard, which it doesn't; the rules for Feint came almost verbatim from Third Edition. That leads me to believe that the perceived problem may stem from a misreading.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by aesir23

If your opponents are All-Out-Attacking every turn, why would you use Feint or Deceptive Attack at all?

In fact, the standard counter to an AoA is to use Telegraphic Attack immediately.

[Fwibos]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

I'm brazilian, and IMO it's easier for anyone with 1 point in english to read the english text than it is to read that.

I figured, but i couldn't resist the chance to poke fun at Google Translate

[Blood Legend]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Statistically, though, you're almost always better dropping to 12/13. Due to the way the rules, you'll usually be pushing the defenses through the steepest part of the curve, while staying relatively close to the top of it yourself.

I try to get that across to my players.. There isn't a whole lot of difference between Not-Hitting and Successful-Defense.

---

If you know your opponents are performing All-Out Attacks, hold off on striking them before they do, perform an All-Out Defense, and let them have it with an All-Out Determined, Telegraphed Mighty Blow to the Skull.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Kromm

That strikes me as odd, too. All-Out Attack isn't especially useful against an opponent who's good enough to think about Feint or Deceptive Attack,...

My assumption has been that it has looked something like this <at the table in Rio>

GM: Speed 6.50! You are being Feinted by the Rapier Jock; roll against your Broadsword skill.

Player <rattle> I roll a 9, make by 5.

GM <rattle> He rolled a 8, make by 8.

Player Drat! My defenses are at -3.

GM Speed 6!

Player My defenses are toasted. All Out Attack!


I expect the GM is playing it the same way when Players have the Skills to Feint Opponents. Too Much Information. Since they 'know' they have been successfully Feinted they make moves they would not normally make.

Really the mechanics (IMHO) are fine. Just (short of a near critical failure) players/NPC's being Feinted should not be told/aware of that fact.

GM should go with "A Dangerous attack High that missed, barely." or "Looks like he changed Grips." or or or.

I am still boogled that they appear to know NPC skill levels. Usually after I have killed one I can fish GM's for whether MY estimate of their skill is spot on. I have bantered with my players on same topic...AFTER the subject is a mouldering corpse.

Really short of a good session in the dojo or salon with a hour or more to compare skill blade to blade at best players should have a ball park idea of what opponent skill levels are...otherwise to much metagaming.

IMHO.

[gilbertocarlos]

It would be smarter if feint was rolled just before the actual attack.

[Mathulhu]

We have always played that a feint is announced when the action takes place, but it is resolved just before the action that depends on it.

Player - Declare Feint
Monster - Declare Attack - Resolve Attack
Player - Declare Attack - Resolve Feint - Resolve Attack


You do have to remember any penalties but if you each make a note for example (feint - 16) then it is easy to avoid.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Witchking

My assumption has been that it has looked something like this <at the table in Rio>

GM: Speed 6.50! You are being Feinted by the Rapier Jock; roll against your Broadsword skill.

Player <rattle> I roll a 9, make by 5.

GM <rattle> He rolled a 8, make by 8.

Player Drat! My defenses are at -3.

GM Speed 6!

Player My defenses are toasted. All Out Attack!

In a contest between foes of more or less equal skill, the ability to force an AoA is at least as valuable as the standard Feint.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In a contest between foes of more or less equal skill, the ability to force an AoA is at least as valuable as the standard Feint.

Agreed. The saner response would probably be for the Feintee to All-Out Defend, and maybe try to get enough distance (through the 1/2 move allowed by All-Out Dodge) that the attacker can't take advantage of the defense penalty. And even that can be beneficial to the Feinter, since it's giving him an extra second without needing to defend himself. This could be a great help if using the optional Action Points system, since it's forcing the defender to burn more AP.

But as mentioned already, the defender shouldn't know he's been Feinted, except in the specific circumstance of a Beat (a ST-based "Feint").