Feint.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by spqr1337

So "Deceptive attack" is so much better of feint! Where in basic set is the description of "Deceptive attack"?

It's in Basic Set, page 369. I wouldn't say it's always better than Feint. But the two aren't mutually exclusive either. If you successfully Feint an opponent, you can also use Deceptive Attack on the next strike to really knock down his defense.

Feint can potentially give much larger defense penalties than Deceptive Attack can. As mentioned, DA gives -1 to defense per -2 to hit. With Feint, you give -1 to defense per Margin of Success. So on average, raising your skill by 2 gives -1 to defense using DA, but -2 to defense with a Feint. Also, Feint can be improved very cheaply as a technique; to "improve" DA you need to raise your combat skill.

Feint is also useful when you need to overcome a strong defense, but still have plenty of skill left over for Targeted Attack or similar special tactics. For example, a knife fighter battling against a fully armored knight with a shield. The knife fighter's best chance may be to stab the knight through a chink in his armor (-9 or -10 to hit) but to get past the shield he also needs to lower the knight's defenses. Feint is probably the best option in this case.

[Blood Legend]

Deceptive Attack isn't much better than Feint. It's definitely more convenient, much easier to resolve, and doesn't sacrifice an attack, but the penalties you can stack on your opponent are usually much higher with Feints. Most Players I've seen have a skill of 16-18 in their primary skill starting out, and they're pretty reluctant to drop their skill down below 14 (a 90% to hit). That's only -1 or -2 to an opponent's defense.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Blood Legend

Deceptive Attack isn't much better than Feint. It's definitely more convenient, much easier to resolve, and doesn't sacrifice an attack, but the penalties you can stack on your opponent are usually much higher with Feints. Most Players I've seen have a skill of 16-18 in their primary skill starting out, and they're pretty reluctant to drop their skill down below 14 (a 90% to hit). That's only -1 or -2 to an opponent's defense.

Statistically, though, you're almost always better dropping to 12/13. Due to the way the rules, you'll usually be pushing the defenses through the steepest part of the curve, while staying relatively close to the top of it yourself.

[Fwibos]

Originally Posted by Armin

If his GM handles it like one of mine did, then the opponent knows he was feinted, and runs away if you did well on the feint.

Armin

The problem is not the rules, it's the GM.
If you cannot convince him he is being an ass, can you perhaps try AoA(Feint) it gives you a feint and an immediate attack. Use a thrust vitals attack or a thrust limb vein attack, and kill the guy you are attacking,

Make it a Trademark move for an extra +1

O problema não são as regras, é a GM.
Se você não pode convencê-lo de que ele está sendo um idiota, você pode talvez tentar AoA (Finta) dá-lhe uma finta e um ataque imediato. Use um golpe de ataque de sinais vitais ou um impulso ataque veia do membro, e matar o cara que você está atacando,

Torná-lo um movimento Marcas para um extra de um

Totally used google translate on that... :)

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Blood Legend

Most Players I've seen have a skill of 16-18 in their primary skill starting out, and they're pretty reluctant to drop their skill down below 14 (a 90% to hit). That's only -1 or -2 to an opponent's defense.

Still, it's -1 to -2 at little if any cost to you. That will add up over time. Sure, Feint could be better, but Deceptive Attack is consistent and stacks with Feint, so you don't need to make a choice between them.

Plus, once you hit 16 skill, you have to look it it this way - 8 points in your primary weapon skill means +1 to your parry and -1 to your opponent's defenses. That's a pretty good investment for 8 points. And yeah, it's +2 in your Feint contests when you are busting out that move.

Again, Feint is a great tool, and it's potentially much more useful - but Deceptive Attack is a no-risk low-cost way to leverage your skill for a better chance to hit.


Just as a house-rule note, though, I don't allow Feint as part of a Dual-Weapon Attack. I figured the simultaneity of DWA that justifies a -1 to defenses automatically meant there wasn't enough time to react to the Feint by the defender, or for the weapon to be taken sufficiently out of line with a Beat by the attacker. So you could only do this with a Rapid Strike. It's not RAW - the wording of the RAW supports splitting a DWA that way - but I find it makes for a great tradeoff for dual-weapon strikers vs. Rapid Strike.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Just as a house-rule note, though, I don't allow Feint as part of a Dual-Weapon Attack. I figured the simultaneity of DWA that justifies a -1 to defenses automatically meant there wasn't enough time to react to the Feint by the defender, or for the weapon to be taken sufficiently out of line with a Beat by the attacker. So you could only do this with a Rapid Strike. It's not RAW - the wording of the RAW supports splitting a DWA that way - but I find it makes for a great tradeoff for dual-weapon strikers vs. Rapid Strike.

I take it with your house rule you would allow an AoA (Feint/DWA straight up) and that the Feint would work for the DWA the same way an AoA (Feint/Attack) works?

Yes?

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Witchking

I take it with your house rule you would allow an AoA (Feint/DWA straight up) and that the Feint would work for the DWA the same way an AoA (Feint/Attack) works?

Yes?

Yes.

And someone with Extra Attack 1 could, say, trade it for a Feint and follow it with a DWA.

I'd probably allow a DWA with one part being a Beat, but I'd apply it to the next attack (next turn, probably) not the other part of the DWA. But that hasn't ever come up - it's a rare situation where you would have someone who could make that work better than any other option and who'd have a situation where they wanted to do it.

[Kazander]

Feint is used most in situations where you have a skill or Feint technique that is at least 4 points above your opponent's resisting skill (enough to make it a reliable penalty to his defense for a sacrificed attack), but for whatever reason, you are having trouble getting past his defenses with Deceptive Attack alone. It may be because of Enhanced Defense, Deflect or Defending Shield/Weapon Enchantments, or a retreating Dodge/Fencing monkey constantly getting +3 to his defenses. Or a combination of the above. If you can't get your opponent's defense below 12 with Deceptive Attack alone, then Feint may be the answer.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by spqr1337

Porra! Então "Deceptive attack" é muito melhor do que finta!

Ops... Sorry...

****! So "Deceptive attack" is so much better of feint! Where in basic set is the description of "Deceptive attack"?

It's not so great, you sacrifice -2 in your attack to give your opponent a -1.
Ex: You have Skill 18, you reduce it to 12(-6), the opponent loses 3(6/2) on the defense.
Remember that feint is very useful against opponents with a shield, they tend to have high defenses, but no so great skills.
Let's say Skill 18 vs skill 12, the enemy also have +3 from the shield and +1 from combat reflexes, his effective defense is 13, that's around 15% hitting chance, but with a feint(margin of success 6) and an attack on the next turn you have 80%.


Não tão boa assim, -2 no seu ataque para seu oponente ter -1.
Ex: Você tem NH18, reduz ele para 12(-6), seu oponente perde 3(6/2) na defesa.
Lembre que finta é muito útil contra oponentes com escudo, eles tendem a ter defesas altas, mas não NH alto.
Imagine NH18 contra NH12, o inimigo tem um escudo grande +3 e +1 de reflexos em combate, a defesa dele é 13, você tem uma chance de acertar em torno de 15%, porém, com uma finta(com sucesso de 6) o próximo ataque tem 80% de acerto.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Fwibos

O problema não são as regras, é a GM.
Se você não pode convencê-lo de que ele está sendo um idiota, você pode talvez tentar AoA (Finta) dá-lhe uma finta e um ataque imediato. Use um golpe de ataque de sinais vitais ou um impulso ataque veia do membro, e matar o cara que você está atacando,

Torná-lo um movimento Marcas para um extra de um

Totally used google translate on that... :)

I'm brazilian, and IMO it's easier for anyone with 1 point in english to read the english text than it is to read that.