Defensive Attack & Feint

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

I don't think its quite any attack, I think its any normal unmodified attack, any attack where the modifiers for the attack can be meaningfully applied to the Feint, or an attack with bonuses that cannot be applied to the Feint and are therefore lost.

Yeah, actually, that's the best summary of my position. You can't use a "deceptive attack feint" because the penalties applied by Deceptive Attacks are meaningless in terms of a feint. In real world terms, I'd describe it as "You try to fake out your opponent, but your 'strike' is obviously weak, with no force behind it, so he isn't fooled." Basically, the feint auto-fails.
If you want to do a feint that leaves you better defensively, do a Defensive Feint (Martial Arts p. 101), and if you want to both degrade your opponent's defenses and keep yours up, either make two attacks, one a regular Feint and the other a Defensive Feint, or do a Defensive Feint on your first turn and make your attack Deceptive on your next turn.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

I could see allowing it with a skill penalty. But flat-out dissalowing it seems wrong in some cases. As odd as it is to picture, imagine a Defensive Attack (With the defense bonus going to, say, a shield), done as a rapid-strike with the sword, first attack being a feint, second attack being an actual attack. It does seem a little odd in that case that he couldn't do such a thing, even at a penalty, when he could with a normal attack.

Though I'm kind of torn as to wether it should be -2 (Comparable to Commited Attack) or -4 (Comparable to All-Out Attack). -4 seems like a safer bet, to keep it from being over-used. But the damage-reduction for a normal Defensive Attack is the exact opposite of Commited Attack, which makes it seem like -2 might be more fair. Especially if you compare the trade-off a defensive feint would have (Reduce their attack by 2 less than you could have, for an extra +1 to a single defense). Definately seems like something that could use some testing.

On a side note: Thanks to the Teamwork perk, I've actually been seeing Commited Attack feints. And if the mage had a better Staff skill, might be seeing some All-Out ones.

[vicky_molokh]

You know, the Defensive Attack (Feint) seems like a bug, but given how weak Feint and Evaluate usually are, it might be not bad, really. Speaking without my keeper hat, though.

[Humabout]

An alternative that will likely get me yelled at a lot would be to keep the Defensive Attack bonuses and just apply that -2 penalty to the Feint roll. That is mechanically-speaking, of course. Why that would work like that in real life is beyond me.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Oh, oops. I remembered wrong. The damage penalty for Defensive Attack is the same as the damage bonus for All-Out Attack (Strong). So -4 to a Defensive Attack feint seems both safe and fair, rules-wise.

[The Wrathchild]

Originally Posted by B9anders

I haven't been able to find anything about this by search, so apologies if this has already been brought up.

It just occurred to me that, with the defensive attack option introduced in MA, is there any reason at all why a fighter who might previously have opted for the feint maneuver should not instead opt for a defensive attack and use the feint technique?
As far as I can see, the only effective difference between the two is that the latter gains a defensive bonus.

It seems to me that feint as a maneuver is made rather superfluous with this.

You can say that. Of course, you are referencing an optional and cinematic rule, namely that of Feints and Multiple Attacks from Martial Arts p. 127. When you put that rule in effect, your assessment becomes correct. This rule effectively does away with Feint as a maneuver of its own and changes it to an attack option, to be chosen or not as you wish.

It is not the introduction of the Defensive Attack Maneuver on its own that causes this shift, though.

[The Wrathchild]

Oh, but once that rule is in effect, it becomes legal to call a Defensive Feint, yes, where the RAW results in the defender getting no penalty to the Feint (as Defensive Attack involves no skill penalties) while still getting the bonuses to defense while Feinting.

Well ... we ARE into cinematic territory here, and the bonus isn't THAT big, is it? I'd let it slide, personally, and say: "Yes, this is part of Cinematic reality - go Defensively Defensively Feint away". Yes, that would be possible - using Defensive Attack to throw a Defensive Feint - but again ONLY if you implement that rule om MA127.

[Rasmus Wagner]

Originally Posted by Molokh

You know, the Defensive Attack (Feint) seems like a bug, but given how weak Feint and Evaluate usually are, it might be not bad, really. Speaking without my keeper hat, though.

I was going to say that!