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Old 01-02-2022, 06:59 AM   #21
ericthered
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Default Re: Inter-team agent friction

There are two easy answers for what wacky ISWAT people do on homeline.



First: They don't go there to vacation. Agents are stretched thin, and canonically vacation by taking slightly easier missions. Laying aside that over-the-topness, its just as easy to vacation on out-time worlds as on homeline, and the wacky folks don't have any family to visit there. HQ for ISWAT isn't on homeline, and Infinity has a whole infrastructure off-world. You CAN change these parameters, but you don't have to.



Second: Most ISWAT missions involve some degree of undercover. Unless you're literally the team that shows up and smacks the horror of the day until its dead, you have the skills to blend into a wide variety of worlds. Even if that involves folding your ears with prosthetics.
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Old 01-02-2022, 04:47 PM   #22
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Inter-team agent friction

As regards Infinity/ISWAT/etc, I'd imagine agents who aren't readily adaptable to other cultural mores (or at least cultural mores Homeliners would find acceptable - you're probably fine if you can't really accept a culture revolving around torturing people and eating babies)... aren't agents. There may be cases where such characters would be on a team for a specific task, however, but that's going to be because they're basically the only one that can pull it off. If you've got someone who considers "wearing clothing" as a signal that you're hiding something horrible and cannot be trusted, and who thinks hair is actually a parasitic infection, but he's outright immune to Elder Things, renders those near him comparably immune, and can tear through them like they were made of tissue... you use him as a precision munition against Elder Thing incursions in various worldlines, and have the team escorting him shave themselves bald and play nudist.

Simply having the wrong concepts of how things function, rather than not being open to things functioning in a different way, is a markedly more surmountable issue, in that sufficient training can mitigate or outright eliminate the problem. In GURPS, a lot of that is going to be about /TL skills not matching up, and about lacking the appropriate Cultural Familiarity. Even then, not everybody will be able to overcome those hurdles... in which case you either don't make them agents, or don't send them to worldlines where those hurdles are problematic.
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Old 01-02-2022, 05:20 PM   #23
dcarson
 
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Default Re: Inter-team agent friction

I'm now thinking of the Honorverse short story Lets go to Prague as a ISWAT scenario. Two Manticorian intelligence get leave during the war but the trip to and from Manticore would use half their leave and because they are operating undercover they don't have uniforms with medals and such they can wear in public which would make them look like cowards or such to the civilians so not hope of picking up girls. So they decide that the planet Prague is closer, they have uniforms with medals thye can wear there because of their undercover work so let's go there on leave. The fact that Prague is a enemy planet is not a factor. Wackiness of course ensues.

So a ISWAT team that goes on leave on a planet that is not safe but is fun.
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Old 01-05-2022, 02:43 AM   #24
warellis
 
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Default Re: Inter-team agent friction

Do we have any info on the Time Tour stuff, or whatever the tourism board of Infinity is, and what kind of possible little rules they may tell tourists?

Because I find it interesting that Infinity is terrified about the Secret getting out, and yet at the same time is taking tourists from Homeline to various worldlines - often with vastly different societal mores & expectations (and material conditions) - who themselves might accidentally also let out the Secret.

Johnson's Rome seems okay but that is a world where the Secret is sort of out (and hopefully the money is spreading to the locals there at least). I'm thinking more about the various worlds that are considered popular destinations but are still unknowing, like various Edwardian timelines for example.

And even with often some tech level divergence (say TL 5+1 for example if we're looking at a typical Edwardianish worldline), I get the feeling sometimes the material comforts of even high end hotels or wherever may not always be up to snuff as far as say a TL 8 world inhabitant's sensibilities might be used to (usual ugly tourist stuff).

Dodgy food quality, insulation not as good, etc.

I'm sure Time Tours has pamphlets and guides to help out for tourists, and of course has medical staff in contact for various issues tourists might face, but even then you can't make everything perfect, especially with finicky tourists who might be complaining about their wrist-top weblinks not being available with them and being sort of bored due to no Internet access (hard to access when it's non-existent) or having to walk a lot.

And that's if they aren't being treated poorly by locals due to different societal expectations...
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Old 01-05-2022, 09:44 AM   #25
Willy
 
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Default Re: Inter-team agent friction

Quote:
Originally Posted by warellis View Post
Do we have any info on the Time Tour stuff, or whatever the tourism board of Infinity is, and what kind of possible little rules they may tell tourists?

Because I find it interesting that Infinity is terrified about the Secret getting out, and yet at the same time is taking tourists from Homeline to various worldlines - often with vastly different societal mores & expectations (and material conditions) - who themselves might accidentally also let out the Secret.
SNIP
I have this problems with the whole setting too, for several reasons

First time tours tourist may have to sign a waver so that time tours isnīt liable if they got hurt, but we all know a hungry lawyer is a dangerous animal.

Second if you sum up just the known time tours destinations, itīs mass tourism, with all the problems that arise from that, sooner or later a tourist will violate a law and is arested or even convicted to execution, or let slip some words that lead to the secret, no patrol or tourist guide can be everywhere.

Third given the numbers of tourists gouvernment agencys, even if lubricated, they will very quickly realize that there something very conspicious is happening. Timetours or White Star would in every even farfetched realism have the CIA / FBI and such on their heels than they could say Iīm innocent!

Fourth the said tech level difference will tell them to the natives even quicker. Imagine a tourist from that setting making holydays in the ancient athens, the locals or the guides will have to show them how everything works, and is common knowledge. Questions will arise quickly.

Last but not least, any gouvernment if developed enough will very soon get suspicios if certain research labs are sabotaged, this could lead to a war if they think the emeny was it or they sit together speak about it and come to the conclusion that there is another party involved! Not to mention that any TL 8 or magic / psionic society will find intruders by technological or other means very quickly, think here of Technomancer or Yrth where the rulers actively search for newcomers.

I personally think that the whole setting of Infinity tells a lot about the mindset and culture of the authors, because it takes a lot of things for granted or normal that arenīt that.

But we are sidetracking this thread a bit.
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Old 01-05-2022, 02:56 PM   #26
warellis
 
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Default Re: Inter-team agent friction

To be fair, the main idea behind this thread was: "how difficult is it to maintain relationships, professional or romantic or whatever, or interact with a host society/organization, when the values, tech levels, social mores, etc may be quite different from what members are used to."

In fact the original idea behind this thread, before I thought about Infinity and its agents, was about characters being banestormed from one worldline to others and potentially falling in love with a local(s) (and vice-versa), but having to deal with the issues of differences in ideas on magic, tech levels, societal mores, etc.

Last edited by warellis; 01-05-2022 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 01-05-2022, 05:12 PM   #27
johndallman
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Default Re: Inter-team agent friction

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Originally Posted by warellis View Post
Because I find it interesting that Infinity is terrified about the Secret getting out, and yet at the same time is taking tourists from Homeline to various worldlines - often with vastly different societal mores & expectations (and material conditions) - who themselves might accidentally also let out the Secret.
I have the impression that Time Tours doesn't go anywhere the locals would have a chance of reverse-engineering TL8 gear. The section in Infinite Worlds doesn't say anything about that, but does not contradict it.
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Old 01-06-2022, 01:49 AM   #28
warellis
 
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Default Re: Inter-team agent friction

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
I have the impression that Time Tours doesn't go anywhere the locals would have a chance of reverse-engineering TL8 gear. The section in Infinite Worlds doesn't say anything about that, but does not contradict it.
It's less the danger of reverse engineering and more the fact our modern society is in a number of ways very different from societies even just 50-100 years ago.

And that the locals might notice something is off about these weirdo tourists.
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Old 02-11-2022, 08:59 PM   #29
warellis
 
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Default Re: Inter-team agent friction

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
The main value of refugees or immigrants from Low Tech or less developed areas comes from their ability as semi-skilled or unskilled labor, particularly as member of trades which don't change much at higher TL (e.g., entertainers, religious leaders, childcare, agricultural workers, artisanal food prep.). They act as "force expanders" to allow better educated natives to perform higher-skilled jobs. For example, an immigrant nanny can provide childcare allowing a parent with an advanced degree to work full-time, or an immigrant nurse's assistant might allow an elderly or ill "knowledge worker" to remain productive rather than retiring.

The "potential value" of young low TL immigrants comes from their ability to bear/sire/ raise children who can be trained to be full members of their adopted society.

There are also "soft" benefits from a robust immigrant community, like improved cultural access to access to unusual languages & skills.

Initially, however, the hassles associated with bringing a TL5- person up to TL8-9 TL & teaching them the relevant Cultural Familiarities & Languages (at Accented/Native) level, limit their ability to fully contribute to a high-tech society.


It is relevant that the lower TL GURPS iconic characters of Dia Blackthorn, Dr. William Headley, Iotha, & Xing La not only have superior attributes & extremely useful TL-independent powers, but also special Infinity Patrol training which allows them to nominally function in TL8+ society.

They represent elite members of their society, rescued by Infinity Patrol & specially selected for relevant "subject matter expertise." Your average Yrth peasant or Lenin-2 factory worker would have a much harder time adapting to Homeline culture & would bring far fewer "value-added" skills to offset the time & trouble of training them.
In the case of something like this, how big of a danger might there be of the potential for cross-worldline enclaves of a sort if immigration does happen?

By which I mean the issue of Homeline organizations like Infinity attempting to assimilate and integrate groups of people from other worlds?

Because we often see an issue with immigration in the real world where there can be potential problems like difficulty in integration, leading to enclaves of [insert immigrants] that seem to coagulate and become a sort of island of immigrant culture (for better or worse) in the majority culture of the host nation.

Like it reminds me of how some Homeline nations try to help out their cross-world counterparts by like accepting refugees from them. Which then makes me wonder what difficulties might those refugees face in such a potentially dufferent world from what they're used to.
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Old 02-14-2022, 12:16 PM   #30
bocephus
 
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Default Re: Inter-team agent friction

TL:DR
I think that part of the training operatives would get would be how to acclimatize themselves to each other and a bare bones set of guidelines for how they are expected to comport themselves on the job (and probably off the job as well). You could get a feel for the idea by looking into the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) for the various branches of the American Armed Forces (Im not sure which, if any, other countries have something similar).

Operatives may not be compatible romantically/physically for a myriad of reasons but that can be good for RP as well.

Someone getting "Banestormed" can be what ever the GM wants it to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warellis View Post
To be fair, the main idea behind this thread was: "how difficult is it to maintain relationships, professional or romantic or whatever, or interact with a host society/organization, when the values, tech levels, social mores, etc may be quite different from what members are used to."
Caste systems, gender bias, appearance bias, xenophobia, technical/magical/artistic differences and/or bias (educated vs not), Anything that falls into some form of savoir-faire. A GM could also screw with anything involving psychology or 'reading/predicting' behavior, the more nuanced the greater the potential for misinterpretation. All these things could be baggage the PC carries, or cultural situations they encounter.

Much like the experience with people that "work" in a common environment but come from different cultures, of course relationships are possible. The difference to some one "banestormed" is, in an organization both parties have a similar frame of reference to work from.

The Academy (much like Militaries, Politics and Global Corparations) would have developed a curriculum to establish a common verbiage and culture for the purpose of training people for Work. In the Military this is "Basic training", in the corporate world this is "onboarding", in a university it's "orientation". In the case of the Academy I think it would be most like basic training, with mission briefings being a much shorter orientation unless the planners think more planning is justified.

This common frame would give people a jumping off point for relationships. Of course there would be aspects that come from outside a "work" requirement. Things related to physical attraction and cultural bias and the like.

I would imagine this would be completely open to every GM/Player to explore, but there would be so many potential variations I can't imagine a dedicated ruleset to deal with it.

It's an interesting idea that would probably give a lot of really good RP fodder in a longer term campaign, but it would be really difficult to explore in a short adventure.


I have to think, before being deployed for a mission, the operatives would get some sort of orientation to the local peoples, cultures, customs they may encounter. Unless that's exactly the scenario being played (the lack of prior knowledge).

Within the team there would probably be a lot more leeway for this, everyone knowing they all come from different places and cultural values. There would probably be a much greater amount of "did you really mean that, like it came across?" rather than "You just inadvertently insulted my ancestors and now we must duel to the death" .... out in the world I could surely see an operative forget some detail and stumble into an honor duel or get a fine or jail time for doing something relatively innocuous (spitting in Singapore is a great example).

Last edited by bocephus; 02-14-2022 at 12:24 PM.
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